Help - turning mg/dl glucose into uM for ascorbate

Ask questions, seek advice, or share your experience with vitamin C

Moderators: ofonorow, popnowlin

ofonorow
Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard
Posts: 12889
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:16 pm
Location: Lisle, IL
Contact:

Re: Help - turning mg/dl glucose into uM for ascorbate

Post Number:#16  Post by ofonorow » Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:04 am

Thank you very much.

I agree there was a reading difference of 49 mg/dl, and we believe this is the measure of the additional vitamin C in the blood, subject to probably a +- 5 mg/dl error in readings, but which we tried hard to control by taking the measurements first thing in the morning, before food and insulin.


From the last post of the previous thread on this topic:
FSBG(15)= 177
FSBG(0) = 128

Therefore, AAFSBG(15) = FSBG(15) - FSBG(0)
= 177 - 128
= 49 mg/dL ascorbate


The question, and thus the reason for the calibration, is to determine what the 49 mg/Dl "glucose" reading means in terms of ascorbate, (rather than in terms of what the unit is supposed to be measuring.)

I was stunned during the initial calibration testing described in this post that a) sodium ascorbate calibrated about twice the number of ascorbic acid, and b) that a second meter, that is apparently sensitive (True Metrix) was about 100 points higher. So it is not useful in the calibration of the FreeStyle Lite, but we can still calibrate it and then use it in future experiment.s

Per our email correspondence, the idea of taking 2 or 3 blood tests, especially one at minute 15 to measure ascorbate accurately, and compare to the meter readings is something I'd like to pursue, but then it occurred to me? What would keep the ascorbate from breaking down as it is known to do by 50% in water as it is transported to the lab? The most accuracy would be sitting next to the machine that can analyze the blood for ascorbate content. (I wonder what that machine is, and how much it would cost?)
Owen R. Fonorow, Follow #OWENRFONOROW at twitter

Johnwen
Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard
Posts: 2083
Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:27 pm
Contact:

Re: Help - turning mg/dl glucose into uM for ascorbate

Post Number:#17  Post by Johnwen » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:13 am

The most accuracy would be sitting next to the machine that can analyze the blood for ascorbate content. (I wonder what that machine is, and how much it would cost?)


It’s called a;
“High-performance liquid chromatography with coulometric electrochemical detection.”
COST? Somewhere between a VW Bug and a fully loaded Escalade! :cry:

Here’s something that may help in your ventures!

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3725640/
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is
research!

Ascorbic
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:47 am
Contact:

Re: Help - turning mg/dl glucose into uM for ascorbate

Post Number:#18  Post by Ascorbic » Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:46 pm

Could you take a blood sample and then titrate with TCPIP?

Ascorbic
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:47 am
Contact:

Re: Help - turning mg/dl glucose into uM for ascorbate

Post Number:#19  Post by Ascorbic » Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:22 pm

Yes, I was confused by that issue for a while as well.
Does the 49 mg/dL actually mean 49 mg/dL ascorbate?

This seems very strange to me.
Is it truly valid that 49 mg/dL ascorbate + 128 mg/dL glucose = 177 mg/dL glucose combined with ascorbate?
It took me quite a while, though I finally decided that this is exactly what the article was suggesting.
Still seems odd to me.

All you really need to do is to take the blood reading right at the maximum (which you would likely have
a good idea when this would occur) and it would be nice for a point or two else for added calibration confidence.
My guess would be that once the blood sample is taken there must be some chemical process or otherwise that
stabilizes the concentration of various chemicals present in the blood. Perhaps simply removing the blood from
circulation is enough.

Here's an article talking about issues of glucose stability after blood collection. Not sure about ascorbate stability.
https://www.hindawi.com/journals/jeph/2013/256151/

"Shipment of samples to reference laboratories is problematic because vitamin C is notoriously unstable, requiring rapid plasma stabilization and continuous storage at -80o C"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4839128/

Could always consider going to a hospital or other consumer lab in the early hours and ask if they would do an on the spot test for you.


I think that given what you know now it would be well worth while to go ahead and
have at least one blood test (at maximum) and see what the result is. If the reading truly was nearly
3 mM this would be a result of considerable interest.

ofonorow
Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard
Posts: 12889
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:16 pm
Location: Lisle, IL
Contact:

Re: Help - turning mg/dl glucose into uM for ascorbate

Post Number:#20  Post by ofonorow » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:16 pm

Great minds. I asked the tech who drew my blood this morning (I am in the hospital again) if they do all their lab processing in house - yes to almost all - and whether they can measure vitamin C in the blood. She thought so. If I am stuck in here for much longer, I may see if we can run an experiment (although the early morning is their busy time, and they really don't like me taking ANYTHING from home, and not dispensed by the hospital. (I think it is the law)
Owen R. Fonorow, Follow #OWENRFONOROW at twitter

Ascorbic
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:47 am
Contact:

Re: Help - turning mg/dl glucose into uM for ascorbate

Post Number:#21  Post by Ascorbic » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:44 pm

Great!
The hospital is a great place for this er experiment.

Mainstream medicine has never believed in vitamin C so taking 15 grams should do nothing interesting.
Just ask them if they could schedule you last on the run and that your sample is processed first.

Get better soon!
Last edited by Ascorbic on Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:06 am, edited 2 times in total.

ofonorow
Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard
Posts: 12889
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:16 pm
Location: Lisle, IL
Contact:

Re: Help - turning mg/dl glucose into uM for ascorbate

Post Number:#22  Post by ofonorow » Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:37 am

The restriction on taking my own vitamin C would be while I am admitted. I may be able to set something up after I am discharged. (Long ago they were very nice and when I had blood drawn to test my Lp(a) for an atherotech VAP test, they were nice enough to draw another sample and run their own Lp(a) test, so I had a basis for comparison. There are usually the little issues like a doctors order.
Owen R. Fonorow, Follow #OWENRFONOROW at twitter

ofonorow
Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard
Posts: 12889
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:16 pm
Location: Lisle, IL
Contact:

Re: Help - turning mg/dl glucose into uM for ascorbate

Post Number:#23  Post by ofonorow » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:04 am

Owen R. Fonorow, Follow #OWENRFONOROW at twitter

Johnwen
Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard
Posts: 2083
Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:27 pm
Contact:

Re: Help - turning mg/dl glucose into uM for ascorbate

Post Number:#24  Post by Johnwen » Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:31 pm

Owen wrote:
(I am in the hospital again)


What are you doing there?
Don’t you know there’s a lot of sick people in those places?

Okay! I tried to guess but the list would take about 2 pages to post so I’ll just ask!
What Happened?? If you willing to share??

As far as taking external Med’s or Supp’s it’s more a policy and routine to assure that there is full understanding and treatment of the patients condition as while as reduction of the risk of adverse reactions with the med’s they are giving a patient. It also mitigates their liability of malpractice if something don’t work out the way it’s suppose to!

Main thing, AGAIN!
“GET WELL, SOON!!!”
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is
research!

ofonorow
Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard
Posts: 12889
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:16 pm
Location: Lisle, IL
Contact:

Re: Help - turning mg/dl glucose into uM for ascorbate

Post Number:#25  Post by ofonorow » Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:24 am

Here is my first report...viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13366&p=50506#p50466
Follow-up viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13366&p=50506#p50504

Per last post, I could use advice johnwen. My choices are a) have a huge hernia mesh removed (and replace with what?) or b) stay on high power antibiotics. (I feel good. No sniffles no drips no errs.. no fever. WBC normal.. They did say they now notice on the last hospital CT - bowel obstruction - fluid at the bottom of the mesh). This written from the hospital yesterday. Easiest surgery I ever had.. but they know to pump me with steroids.. Seeing hernia expert today


So my vital signs have been perfect. Even blood sugar last night was 79. No signs of infection, yet they say my large hernia mesh is infected and has to be removed, and I am on constant antibiotics until then. Their explanation for no symptoms of infection is my high dose steroids masking them, but why didn't they mask the pain and inflammation after my tooth extraction!?!

My history is that in my 20s I had an inguinal hernia repair. Stitch abscess formed and I had to have 2 more hernia surgeries...to get the abscess to stop draining.

In 2014 when they put this large mesh in, I almost expired... great surgeon, but not used to adrenal fatigue and diabetes.. And an abscess formed that required months under a wound clinic's care to close..

I think taking this mesh out would be life threatening, and will not consent, but don't want to be on antibiotics the rest of my life. Any ideas? Something woke my immune system up to the presence of the mesh, at least that's my theory...

I am going to a Hernia specialty clinic tomorrow connected with a major hospital for a second opinion... I notice all the mesh law suits...
Owen R. Fonorow, Follow #OWENRFONOROW at twitter

Johnwen
Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard
Posts: 2083
Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:27 pm
Contact:

Re: Help - turning mg/dl glucose into uM for ascorbate

Post Number:#26  Post by Johnwen » Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:58 pm

Owen
My first thought when I read your last post here is they may have did what is called a enterotomy, which is a penetration or incision of the intestine.
By doing this some of the contents of the GI system can leak out into the area of the mesh, which like yours is usually in the lower area of the abdomen, think gravity!
This in turn causes what is known as a enterocolic fistula ie. A pus sack below the skin caused by a GI leak.
The best thing I can think of at this time would be to draw a sample of the fluid and identify the bug. From that they can set up a protocol with the appropriate antibiotics for a positive treatment before they proceed with any thing further.
If it looks like a leak by the type of bug, then a contrast CT scan (yuk) and see if they can pinpoint the problem.

Another thing could have been a breech of asepsis protocol. Which means the mesh may have been contaminated prior to placement. If it’s in a corner area it may have been touched or picked up by someone who had dirty hands.
I’m kind of tend to not believe this is the cause, due to the time factor.

Then you have the incompatibility problem but if this is in only a small area and if it’s not in a stress area then that is questionable also.

My bet is on a penetration by a mesh securing suture into the GI wall and if they used a dissolving suture, when it dissolved completely it would leave a tiny hole in the GI because of scaring of the wall around where the suture was. Which would form if a small amount of the contents of GI would be seeping thru the hole. Example; would be pierced ear. I know different tissue but it’s the best I can do as a example!

If they have to go back in, talk to them about a plug & patch. This may help with the amount of mesh they may have to use.

Right now just hold the course with the antibiotics and see what they have in mind.

Easy on the turkey!!!
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is
research!

ofonorow
Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard
Posts: 12889
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:16 pm
Location: Lisle, IL
Contact:

Re: Help - turning mg/dl glucose into uM for ascorbate

Post Number:#27  Post by ofonorow » Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:59 am

My bet is on a penetration by a mesh securing suture into the GI wall and if they used a dissolving suture, when it dissolved completely it would leave a tiny hole in the GI because of scaring of the wall around where the suture was. Which would form if a small amount of the contents of GI would be seeping thru the hole. Example; would be pierced ear. I know different tissue but it’s the best I can do as a example!


Thank you johnwen. These abscesses have appeared throughout my life after surgery. They did look for "poop" this time, but found nothing. They have cultured the pathogens and set my antibiotics. (And I noticed that after they began the IV/antibiotics - wrong one to start - the fire in my mouth subsided. The dental pain went away. The expert yesterday says that in his experience, dental work like I had can wind up infecting the mesh.)

On one hand, I suppose I should be happy that the mesh can be removed (unlike an arterial stent once its put in place.) But I want to be in pain and feel like I am near death before having such a surgery... I feel great.

So per another post, I am about to find out whether a huge course of True-liposomal vitamin C can cure a hernia mesh infection! (Started with 8 grams, and now taking 4 grams every 2 to 3 hours.)


Added posted several CBC and Metabolic panel labs in this B5 thread. Looks to me like high dose B5 did help the anemia
http://vitaminc.foundation/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13338&p=50537#p50537
Owen R. Fonorow, Follow #OWENRFONOROW at twitter

ofonorow
Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard
Posts: 12889
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:16 pm
Location: Lisle, IL
Contact:

Re: Help - turning mg/dl glucose into uM for ascorbate

Post Number:#28  Post by ofonorow » Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:01 am

The ascorbate calibrations have been redone using the FreeStyle Lite as described in this post: http://vitaminc.foundation/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13681&start=45#p51475
This time, using a plastic spoon, the readings for sodium ascorbate (although harder) did match the AA and liposomal.



So for now, a concentration of vitamin of 166 mg/dL ascorbate creates a Freestyle reading of 271.0375 mg/dl

Checking the math, we added 1,000 mg of ascorbate to 600 mL water. Thus 1666.6 mg/L or 166.6 mg/dL

This means that an delta reading (above baseline) is reporting 271 mg/dl when it should be reporting 166.6 mg/dl.

Assuming a straight line, then the approximate ratio of 1.6262.

The reading on the Abbott Freestyle Lite is approximately (1.6262 * ascorbate) higher than the ascorbate present.

To calculate the ascorbate in the delta (above baseline) = reading / 1.6262


Ascorbic wrote:Here is my reading of PMID: 23885992.

"To estimate the blood ascorbate concentrations from the FSBG readings, the FSBG readings of each sample point were subtracted by the baseline glucose readings of the relative subject: AAFSBG = FSBGX − FSBG0 (AAFSBG is the estimated blood ascorbate concentration, FSBGX is the FSBG reading at a given time point, FSBG0 is the FSBG reading before IV infusion of ascorbate)."

Thus, AAFSBG = FSBGX − FSBG0

The above formula is reasonable because you want to "zero" out the initial glucose reading.
The initial reading represents the measured starting glucose level, any change in the reading of the glucose meter should reflect a change in
ascorbate levels not glucose.

From the last post of the previous thread on this topic:
FSBG(15)= 177
FSBG(0) = 128

Therefore, AAFSBG(15) = FSBG(15) - FSBG(0)
= 177 - 128
= 49 mg/dL ascorbate

From http://www.endmemo.com/medical/unitconv ... amin_C.php ,

49 mg/dL= 2.782 mM

[Note that 49 is just below 50 which the article thought was the minimum
ascorbate level needed for an accurate reading.]

The article went on to use a correction method that did seem to help though did not
result in statistically improved estimates. Correcting by dividing AAFSBG by 0.90
might still be a good idea.

The finding that oral dosing can possibly lead to ascorbate levels of 2.8 mM or perhaps
even higher is an important result. It would be very helpful if a blood test could be
done that might confirm this important discovery.


In this case,

Therefore, AAFSBG(15) = FSBG(15) - FSBG(0)
= 177 - 128
= 49 mg/dL ascorbate


Using our new formula, the reading of 49 (in terms of glucose) divided by the ratio 1.6262 = 30.13 mg/dl Ascorbate.

Using the calculator, 39.13 mg/dl of vitamin C is 1710.7814 uMol/L

NOTE: This means that we can go back to the Bio paper and create new graphs (or adjust existing) in terms of vitamin C uMol/L. And that will help a great deal in terms of the White Paper - calculating the oral ascorbate amounts necessary to achieve the concentrations necessary to kill cancer stem cells.


Owen R. Fonorow, Follow #OWENRFONOROW at twitter

ofonorow
Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard
Posts: 12889
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:16 pm
Location: Lisle, IL
Contact:

Re: Help - turning mg/dl glucose into uM for ascorbate

Post Number:#29  Post by ofonorow » Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:06 am

I attempted a step up calibration, starting with 100 mg/DL AA - in one DL. Lots of ER3s, but the two measures I was able to make were around 133 mg/dl. So for the lower concentration, the ratio dropped from 1.6262 to perhaps 1.33.. May be measurement error, or the coefficient may change depending on the concentration. Lower concentrations may be closer to the actual reading on the meter.

Johnwen if you start here - the "news" is that the baseline fooled (at least) me, in that liposomal did raise the delta more than the gulp of AA powder.
The foot prints (in the interstitial fluids) were the same.. drop for 2 hours, rise for 4 hours, then drop for 2 hours.
And that all forms, liposomal, AA powder, and SA powder, registered the same reading on the FreeStyle Lite meter during extensive calibration testing.
Owen R. Fonorow, Follow #OWENRFONOROW at twitter

ofonorow
Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard
Posts: 12889
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:16 pm
Location: Lisle, IL
Contact:

Re: Help - turning mg/dl glucose into uM for ascorbate

Post Number:#30  Post by ofonorow » Fri May 04, 2018 10:43 pm

Thank you Johnson. Explains why biochemist friend suggested sodium ascorbate -- to keep pH more like that of the blood.

the late Jay Patrick founder of Alacer Corp/EmergenC, wrote that when AA is taken the body attaches a sodium, so that all vitamin C is sodium ascorbate. Biochemist Sherry Lewin seemed to disagree, saying vitamin C expelled from the cell in the Lymph was sodium ascorbate.

The problem, other than the IV/C, the primary measurements are of high dose AA. It is possible I suppose that the concentrations of AA are even higher than we thought, if the meter reports low for AA.

I may have to run experiments like you suggest.

I am also thinking about using the standard glucose testing solutions used to test and calibrate glucose meters (since my own blood would coaggulate)

Johnson, what us your formula to create simulated blood?

I used distilled water. Maybe I should start with saline?

90 mg/dO glucose seemed correct, but I should check my starting blood sugar in the bio experiments.

What else should I check to make these calibrations apples vs apples?



The objective is to understand what the AA readings of my own blood are showing.
Owen R. Fonorow, Follow #OWENRFONOROW at twitter


Return to “General Discussion Topics and Issues”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests