Continuous Glucose Monitor - Says it is affected by High Dose Vitamin C

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Continuous Glucose Monitor - Says it is affected by High Dose Vitamin C

Post Number:#1  Post by ofonorow » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:12 pm

While we wait for the New Zealand vitamin C finger prick monitors....

So my quite high glucose has prompted a prescription for a FreeStyle Libre Continuous Glucose Monitor.

These things are neat! However, under a section in the user's guide "What to Know About Interfering substances such as Vitamin C and Aspirin" it
reads


Taking ascorbic acid (vitamin C) while wearing the Sensor may falsely raise Sensor glucose readings.


Aspirin may falsely lower readings.

This is interesting on several levels.

First, I take 20 grams of vitamin C. It is possible that some of my highly elevated readings are due to the vitamin C, rather than a real reading of glucose. I did notice in the hospital, where I generally take a lot less C, they have an easier time controlling my blood "sugar."

Second, if it does indeed read vitamin C - like the Free Style Lite we used in the bioavailability experiments, I have a great way to repeat
the experiments - without having to poke my finger every minute.

The first question is whether it will react to vitamin C, and I may try to find out tomorrow morning :D

If it is sensitive, than a) I need some kind of adjustment to account for the C and estimate my real glucose, and b) we'd have a tool for measuring vitamin C, e.g., after a topical application of a vitamin C serum...
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Re: Continuous Glucose Monitor - Says it is affected by High Dose Vitamin C

Post Number:#2  Post by ofonorow » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:00 am

Fascinating... (And the new device is neat! it is wonderful not having to prick the finger!!)

So a) the Abbott Libre continuous glucose reader does respond to 10 grams of vitamin C (as ultrafine ascorbic acid), but b) with entirely different response characteristics. :?

The meter began working at midnight last night (12 hours after it was applied to my arm).

From midnight to around 6:15 a.m. - the blood sugar readings were constant, around 145-150.

When I awoke, I took both a normal (TrueMetrix) test strip reading and a reading with the Libre. They were within 2 points, and the sugar had risen, after I awoke to 167-169 mg/dl. (Something about getting out of bed raised the blood sugar almost 20 points. I took no food or insulin per usual protocol.)

Then at 6:30 a.m. I gulped at least 10 grams of Ultrafine in water, as I had for the other experiments.

At first, I was relieved because it looked like the meter wasn't measuring vitamin C. As you can see from the data below, there was very little response until minute 18. (If you remember the FreeStyle Lite experiments, there was a terrific response around minute 3, but everything "died down" after minute 15.)

I was expecting a strong early response.. - or no response. However AFTER minute 18, the blood "glucose" measurements started rising and the meter started warning me that my sugar was rapidly rising. It went from around 170 to about 200, or about 30 points in 30 minutes... 45 minutes later it had risen to 218 mg/dl. (Again, this with no food or insulin)

DIscussion

A major difference between the old and new way of measuring glucose is that with the finger prick, we were testing the blood - probably venous, but perhaps arterial.

This Libre takes its measurements from interstitial fluid - fluid that bathes the cells.

It is reasonable to assume that there is a time lag between what we might measure in the blood and what might precipitate out of arteries into the interstitial fluid.

So comparing these results with our original results is like apples and oranges. This method (interstitial) can not be used to monitor the very rapid entry into the blood stream our original experiments noticed. (For completeness, I will, however, repeat the 10 gram IV/C (11.3 grams sodium ascorbate) and use the Libre monitor the first 30 minutes. We can use these results for comparison.)

As far as my own glucose readings, they are apparently inflated because I take vitamin C all day long - trying to keep my blood levels at their maximum. We can guesstimate from the data below (although there is still the 30 minute half life, and I don't gulp large amounts any more.) Since insulin is needed for vitamin C to get into a great many cells, these readings are not wasted - as the cause me to use more insulin, but it does means things are not quite as bad as the seem.


Data (Start time 6:30 a.m. - no food/insulin) - readings every 3 minutes

Time Libre Reading mg/dl
6:33 a.m. 169
6:36 a.m. 159
6:39 a.m. 160
6:42 a.m. 165
6:45 a.m. 170
6:48 a.m. 175
6:51 a.m. 179
6:54 a.m. 181
6:57 a.m. 188
7:00 a.m. 195
7:03 a.m. 198

7:45 a.m. 218 (started my coffee!)
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Re: Continuous Glucose Monitor - Says it is affected by High Dose Vitamin C

Post Number:#3  Post by ofonorow » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:19 pm

Another data point. I didn't have any breakfast. I had two cups of coffee starting around 7:45, and according to my new toy - my blood sugar stayed around 200 until just before noon, when it started to drop. (Coffee usually raises my sugars 40 points).

Rather than a 30 minute half life - as we saw in the blood - looks like the time vitamin C stays in the intersitial fluids is 2 -4 hours. (I've already emailed Dr. Hickey about this.)
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Re: Continuous Glucose Monitor - Says it is affected by High Dose Vitamin C

Post Number:#4  Post by johnyascorbate » Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:51 pm

Very interesting stuff


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Re: Continuous Glucose Monitor - Says it is affected by High Dose Vitamin C

Post Number:#6  Post by ofonorow » Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:22 pm

My toy is a lot of fun! (Been computing the glycemic index of our new B5 Brownies (TEENIES)... Only problem is that to keep everything constant,
I have to run the experiments in the morning - before food, insulin AND coffee.. Tough!

So will have the graph of our IV experiment - identical conditions, i.e., . 10 grams vitamin C (11.3 grams sodium ascorbate) - and we will be able to see the delay from the blood stream into the body fluid around the cells.. And how long it lasts AFTER the IV :!: ....
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Re: Continuous Glucose Monitor - Says it is affected by High Dose Vitamin C

Post Number:#7  Post by johnyascorbate » Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:31 am

ofonorow wrote:While we wait for the New Zealand vitamin C finger prick monitors....


That device is going to be such a game changer. The article I read said it will most likely be available in New Zealand this year, worldwide next year. We have to get our hands on one when they go on sale in NZ somehow.

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Re: Continuous Glucose Monitor - Says it is affected by High Dose Vitamin C

Post Number:#8  Post by ofonorow » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:22 am

I agree, and the company has already responded to our query.

But we are learning something here, that vitamin C levels in the blood are short and sweet. (or is that short and suite? :P ) Per Hickey/Roberts, and this is what the dynamic flow data/theory shows and predicts.

But there may be more to the story. How much vitamin C gets out of the blood stream, and into the interstitial fluids, and how long does it stay there. And is this related to a person's bowel tolerance, etc.
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Re: Continuous Glucose Monitor - Says it is affected by High Dose Vitamin C

Post Number:#9  Post by Johnwen » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:56 am

OWEN Said
A major difference between the old and new way of measuring glucose is that with the finger prick, we were testing the blood - probably venous, but perhaps arterial.



When you take your Blood sugar reading with a home monitor with the finger prick method you are testing Capillary Blood.

When you go for a blood test at collection point they are reading Venous Blood!

If your in the hospital and your doc wants to do Arterial Draw they’ll draw the blood from an artery. Which is a touchy type of draw because of complications that can occur. Because of the structure of the artery and the risk of bleeding.

The difference between the reading’s is usually Higher in the Home draw then the other two test’s . Usually in the range of + 10%-12% differences.


How about a, “Steady State,” reading Like try 2 grams every 2 Hours for like 9 hours. That way your getting your 18 grams at a constant level.
See if how that works out. :?:
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Re: Continuous Glucose Monitor - Says it is affected by High Dose Vitamin C

Post Number:#10  Post by Johnwen » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:13 pm

See if this works!
I had to dump Photobucket they wanted $500 for 1 year to host 3rd party posting!
This is from IMGUR



Image
Last edited by Johnwen on Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Continuous Glucose Monitor - Says it is affected by High Dose Vitamin C

Post Number:#11  Post by ofonorow » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:22 am

Thanks for the graph and the distinction between the methods of testing the blood.

Do you consider the Libre a "collection point?" Or is it something else altogether. Is interstitial fluid even a blood draw? (The nurse mentioned that while they used to wipe away the first liquid from the finger prick (interstitial fluid) but that this is no longer considered (based on the latest research) good practice, and she said it is "better" to measure the interstitial fluid (this research, no doubt funded by Abbott.


When you go for a blood test at collection point they are reading Venous Blood!
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Re: Continuous Glucose Monitor - Says it is affected by High Dose Vitamin C

Post Number:#12  Post by Johnwen » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:23 pm

Actually it’s None of the above!!
What there reading is basically the water base of the body but their going to a point where their reading is the fluids that surround the cells. I guess you could call it the cells BATH WATER! That Not only brings in nutrients it removes the cells waste and transports it out.
Rather then go into all the details I got some links that explains it better then I can without writing a book.

On what the nurse told you!
You have probably noticed that when you poke your finger there is a watery yellowish fluid that comes out with the red stuff.
This is Body water which is about 35% extracellular fluid which is then broken down to Interstitial fluid which is about 26%, Blood Plasma about 7% and 1 to 2% spinal and brain fluids. The rest of the fluid is called intracellular fluid or better known as dirty water.
So Yes! It does contain more of the glucose then what would be just in the red stuff.
How’s that for a plain language explanation?? :shock:

In the following Links,
The first one is Abbott’s version of how their meter works then the research on how this got attention to it.
These are the latest ones but it turns out they where looking into this in the late 80’s and 90’s but the Electronics size were prohibitive back then.

These are the links:

https://freestylediabetes.co.uk/freesty ... em-measure

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2956801/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5627266/

This one got my attention and kind of brought a smile to my face! :D
My thoughts were, REALLY!! what else will they come up with????

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26390345
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Re: Continuous Glucose Monitor - Says it is affected by High Dose Vitamin C

Post Number:#13  Post by ofonorow » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:05 am

Another data point. I had my first IV/C (25 grams) with MSM (25 grams) with the Libre attached yesterday. The sugar has been registering relatively low - under 120.. When I get home, I took a reading, and the glucose" had shot straight up from the IV and it had flatlined at 498 mg/dl (and I wasn't even able to finish 1/2 the bag - there is a problem with filtering MSM, and I'll start another topic about that.) I'm guessing that the highest reading is 500 mg/dl... And I wound up taking too much insulin, partially because I know even the vitamin C needs insulin to enter some cells, but I woke up with the reading in the 90s - meaning the real glucose was less.

My doc thinks the DMSO (or odorless MSM) works its magic by improving the absorption of what ever else is in the bag.. We may soon have a way to demonstrate - the difference between a pure IV/C - and then the same amount of vitamin C with MSM added. Something tells me that a lot more vitamin C will make it into the interstitial fluids in the IV with MSM. Stay tuned.
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Re: Continuous Glucose Monitor - Says it is affected by High Dose Vitamin C

Post Number:#14  Post by ofonorow » Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:11 pm

I ran the same experiment, 10 grams ascorbate (11.3 grams sodium ascorbate) intravenously this morning - but this time the interstitial fluids were measured, rather than the blood. (I'm trying to download the Libre software so I don't have to type in the data readings. Data should be in next post.)

There was a much different signature, as we expected. I wound up in the ER yesterday for another intestinal blockage, but apparently 30 - 40 grams of oral vitamin C was enough to make it a "partial" blockage by the time they did the CT scan, and they sent me home. Today is a clear-fluids only diet day, so nothing to eat and I took no insulin. I did have a half a cup of coffee around 7:00 a.m. - and that created a 150 mg/dl baseline on the Libre which I monitored unchanged for at least 2 hours. Started the experiment around 11:00 a.m. (This IV was slower, and required 1 hour versus 40 minutes last time.)

The readings didn't change much until minute 22-23, but after they took off. The rapid rise apparently triggered some sanity check in the Libre (i.e., It is impossible for blood sugar to rise that much in such a short time - so they reported an error for 10 minutes. Argh!) The number before the error was 221 mg/dl (or 40 points above the previous reading of 186 mg/dl at minute 22.

The libre start working again at minutes 36 - with a reading of 329 mg/dl. The maximum reading was 496 mg/dl at minutes 70-72. Right now, 2 hours later, the reading is still 388 mg/dl.

So upon reflection, my reported blood sugar of 150 mg/dl rose to 500 mg/dl - or 350 points -- on only 10 grams of vitamin C! And because of the clear liquid diet, no insulin, there is little doubt that these readings are due entirely to the vitamin C!

And so far, the readings have been at 250 points about baseline for 2+ hours. This tells me that my own "glucose" readings, to a large extent, are inflated by my vitamin C intake.
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Re: Continuous Glucose Monitor - Says it is affected by High Dose Vitamin C

Post Number:#15  Post by ofonorow » Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:34 am

10 gram ascorbate IV (11.3 grams sodium ascorbate)
Measured with Abbott FreeStyle Libre (interstitial fluids)


Code: Select all


Morning  - pretest
80
140
350
174
176
184

Baseline 
156
153
158
155
150

Minute   Reading
1   150
2   149
3   149
4   148
5   149
6   150
7   152
8   159
9   162
10   168
11   175
12   182
13   190
14   196
15   201
16   198
17   186
18   182
19   182
20   184
21   184
22   186
23   221
24   err
25   err
26   err
27   err

36   329
37   333
38   339
39   344
40   351
41   357
42   363
43   369
44   375
45   381
46   387
47   393
48   399
49   405
50   411
51   416
52   424
53   431
54   437     (iv bag emptied)
55   442
56   447
57   452
58   456
59   460
60   464    ( iv stopped)
61   469
62   473
63   -   (missed - talking to doc , started every 2 min)
64   480
65   -
66   486
67   -
68   492
69   -
70   496
71   -
72   496   (near  upper limit of Libre)
73   -
74   494
75   -
76   491
77   -
78   487
79   -
80   482     (1:19 p.m. CST)

90   442

100   398

110   423

120   388
130   360



170   337


320   233   (4:42 p.m.  - no food/insulin until now)




For reference, here are the two plots of the blood (not interstitial fuild) from the IV and oral.


Image

It will be interesting to plot the IVs (and oral) together, illustrating the much longer persistence of the vitamin in the body fluids. And if we can figure out what the glucose units means in terms of ascorbate (what the umol/l of ascorbate is) then we'd have something..

Here is the raw data from the Libre report software for the record

Code: Select all

Legend High Glucose (>240) Low Glucose (<70) Strip Test Sensor Scan Logged Post-Meal Peak New Sensor Time Change
Note: some glucose readings and/or notes not shown.
Sat 20 Jan
Glucose
mg/dL
00:00 02:00 04:00 06:00 08:00 10:00 12:00 14:00 16:00 18:00 20:00 22:00 00:00
0
80
140
350
174 165 144 156 149 486 360 233
176 153 150 492 337
181 158 152 496
184 155 157 496
150 162 494
150 168 491
150 175 487
149 182 482
149 190 442
148 196 398
201 423
198 388
186
182
182
184
184
186
221
329
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