Continuous Glucose Monitor - Says it is affected by High Dose Vitamin C

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Re: Continuous Glucose Monitor - Says it is affected by High Dose Vitamin C

Post Number:#31  Post by ofonorow » Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:46 pm

Interesting take! (I was thinking along the same lines, i.e., if Mercola's was an emulsion, reading vitamin C would make its results seem better, only when they aren't encapsulated.)

Nice idea to try and destroy the liposomes and retest. I don't have an ultrasound, but perhaps heat would accomplish the same thing - or freezing? See acid pH breaks down liposomes.. May be why most use sodium ascorbate? https://books.google.com/books?id=swiJog5hoVgC&pg=PA128&lpg=PA128&dq=what+destroys+liposomes&source=bl&ots=cd12X3my3x&sig=Xbr1muJnerCPZiBufFV7mxxGoio&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj6nMPh9PjYAhWX3oMKHehuD2QQ6AEITDAG#v=onepage&q=what%20destroys%20liposomes&f=false (on my list).

From the following, and Hickey's study on Livon, I remember it took about 2 to 3 hours for the blood levels to peak/rise, and then persisted from 2 to 4 hours after that...
https://www.valimenta.com/clinicalstudies/

Per your idea, what we may be looking at in the above charts - are the residue, the vitamin C part that is not fully encapsulated.

From Dr. Levy's book on OPTIMAL NUTRITION, we learn that carbs are in the stomach about 2 hours, proteins about 4 hours, and fats remain in the stomach 6 hours. Since the liposomes are definitely "fats", they may not be out of the stomach for six hours, and then they begin their journey down the GI tract.

COINCIDENTALLY - after six hours, my blood sugar had jumped to over 230 mg/dl - before I had any lunch... I did have one Atkins bar, but in the past these raise my blood sugar about 40 points - max, and so thanks to the nice history graph on the Libre reader, I could see the decline, level off, until the rapid rise at noon, or right around six hours!

So tonight, I will try to sleep the first six hours, and start measuring after that..
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Re: Continuous Glucose Monitor - Says it is affected by High Dose Vitamin C

Post Number:#32  Post by ofonorow » Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:44 am

Image

A little disappointing, per above photo of the Libre (10:22 a.m.) , I started the 10 gram liposomal gulp experiment at 1:45 a.m. this morning, went back to bed. Although there was a minor rise from 4 a.m. to 8 a.m., nothing like yesterday's coincidental spike. Either yesterday's jump (after hour 7) was due to the Atkins bar, or perhaps some unknown interaction with food?

And doing it at night like this adds one confounding factor - long-term insulin that I take with dinner now (15 units). Normally by the next morning, the effect of any insulin is negligible. In this case, I had a feeling during the slight rise, that even though vitamin C was appearing, it was being sucked into cells, making the comparisons with the morning powder harder.

In any case, there was no "flooding" of vitamin C measured, even after I took my hydrocortizone/coffee at the 8 hour mark. Kept dropping..

Revisiting something johnwen said


johnwen wrote:I don’t believe waiting will give you much of change in glucose readings either. The Liposomes (capsules) that where not consumed by the cells will probably be removed from the system in a matter of between 2 to 4 hours.


johnwen, it looks like your intuition is correct, its been 9 hours as I write this - with little change from the above graph.

1) It means I need a way to break down liposomes to prove the product has vitamin C as you suggested. (What about freezing, then near boiling?)

2) There was a rise of about 30 points, with little other explanation than the meter was detecting vitamin C. (And from our previous discussion, the fat surrounding the vitamin C should not materially interfere with the meter reading, but perhaps the lipid capsule lowers the reading?)

So one explanation that fits this data (below) is that it requires 2 hours for any vitamin C to appear in the interstitial fluid. Furthermore, that the addition vitamin appears for 4 more hours, but importantly: It is ABSORBED SO QUICKLY INTO CELLS, that it doesn't build up in the interstitial fluid.

3) If this is correct, and something made the meter rise for 4 hours, it will make it difficult to compare different liposomal products, because inferior products would show HIGHER meter readings in the interstitial fluid. In theory, this is because the residues not encapsulated would be measured early and this unencapsulated vitamin C persists, because unencapsulated vitamin C is poorly absorbed from the fluid into cells - at least without insulin.

And that means that I, lacking proper endogenous insulin production, should be taking a lot of liposomal vitamin C :-)


Code: Select all

10 Gram Gulp of PANACEA -   Duration: 10 hours

Baseline  142, 145, 136  (mg/dl in glucose "units")

Start time 1:45 a.m  Sunday 1/28/2018   

Time     Reading
0           133

1:49       118   (Woke up and took a reading )

2:53       127  (Woke up and took a reading  4:34 a.m.)

3:56        150  (Woke up, seemed to be rising at 5:30 a.m. and stayed awake)

4 hrs (240)        144   
250                   141
260                   133
270                   135
280                   139
290                    153
300    (5 hrs)      155
310                    154
320                    151
330                    165
340                    176
350                    167
360    (6 hrs)       171
370                     165
380                     161
390                     169
400                     155
410                     170
420  (7 hrs)          161
430                     161
440                     152
450                     146
460                     159
470                     159
480   (8 hrs)         154              Coffee/Hydrocortisone/Thyroid
490                      152
500                      153
510                      150
520                      149
530                      142
540    (9 hrs)        149
550                      149
560                      148
570                      148            Bio-Coffee with Tapioca
580                      137
590                       127
600                       - 


Interesting.

On another front, I have communicated with Accu-Tech (made by Roche) support, and after first telling me that vitamin C would have no impact on their meter readings, they called by "to clarify." They now say that the meter can be affected by a 3 gram or more IV/C... The idea was to find out how much of my Libre readings are real glucose and from the vitamin C. They sent me a test solution, and with those test strips, I ran the following tests...


Code: Select all

Libre          Accu-tech Nano               Difference
234             212                                 +22
254             234                                 +20
145             161                                 -16
118             118                                  0
144              179                                -35


It looked like it might help, assuming 10% of the reading was vitamin C on the libre, but then there are the strange -16 and -25 readings. (These were in the middle of the liposomal test)

SOLUTION TO WHAT THE GLUCOSE UNITS MEAN FOR VITAMIN C?

If the libre sensor can be set up over a control solution, and think it is monitoring the interstitial fluid, then I can create known concentrations of vitamin C (and glucose). This wouldn't be cheap - a new reader is about $75, and one sensor is at least half that. And I don't know if it would
work.
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Re: Continuous Glucose Monitor - Says it is affected by High Dose Vitamin C

Post Number:#33  Post by Johnwen » Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:03 am

Did a little research on the difference between these different types of meters and it seems that the CGM (libre etc.) lag in their readings from the finger stick versions by anywhere from 10 to 25 minutes on induction of a control solution into the body.
I also picked up on something that seemed interesting and that is pomegranate juice sugars in a normal glucose reaction person, actually will lower glucose levels because they enter the cells more rapidly.
So I figured I would give it a try!
I got Pom wonder juice and took a morning fasting reading then drank 4 oz. YUCK!
Then went about my morning routine about 25 minutes later Not consuming anything or putting anything in my mouth Ie toothpaste, mouthwash etc.
And took another reading here’s what I got !

Same finger!
Fasting 92 :wink:
After juice, 25min. Later 67!!! :shock:

Next on breaking down of Liposome’s found out that since about 2015 they been working with Lipo’s to deliver chemo to cancer patients. Their using ultrasound at the location of the cancer to crack the Lipo’s and release the chemo in a central location. Which has been eliminating all the side effects associated with normal chemo therapy by concentrating the chemo in a targeted area.

Here’s a study from 2004 that shows how ultrasound can be used to build and crack a Lipo.
It’s a PDF.

https://ac.els-cdn.com/S000527360400177 ... 7bd61c9069
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Re: Continuous Glucose Monitor - Says it is affected by High Dose Vitamin C

Post Number:#34  Post by ofonorow » Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:31 am

Very interesting. On two fronts. And experiments are fun, aren't they?

Are you thinking that maybe what (we think) we are seeing is real? (Its your comment about "strong encapsulation" that kept me going, rather than giving up on the low readings as "no effect.")

Do you think that the liposomal is so rapidly absorbed that it isn't persisting, and that for insulin-dependent diabetics, the build-up in the interstitial fluids after the IV/C is "bad" rather than good? My head has turned around over this.

I was going to run the same test on 10 grams of Mercola's liposomes - but the Libre fell off last night during sleep (after only 3 days... Big sigh.)

I am also planning to rerun the 10 gram IV/C on Wednesday, but this time, taking my insulin, perhaps and over abundance, and see how that
affects the (+350) levels of "glucose" we recorded last time.

I want to break the lipos prior to ingestion, per your suggestion, to prove they contain vitamin C (but the +30 rise over 4 hours indicates
the vitamin was there).

We've started an article on this for the Townsend Letter.. Draft http://vitaminccures.com/blog/index.php/2018/01/29/why-insulin-dependent-diabetics-should-take-a-true-liposomal-vitamin-c/

johnwen, your added materially to this work. Let me know if you'd like to add your name to the paper/article. :D


Added...

1. 2015 blood iv numbers may be lower than now because I had better insulin control in 2015. Will probably rerun with finger pricks.
2. The ultrasound work means that we could target vitamin C (Conquer) in liposomes over cancers - to release it.


Added..

3. These results may help resolve the controversy whether vitamin C works its magic against cancer outside versus inside of cells?

Added

4. If these results hold up, then all our long drawn out discussions where/how liposomes dissipate is moot. THey don't, or we would see some of the residues on the meter! (Unless they are expelled intact.)


More thoughts
5. Type 2 diabetics have "clogged" GLUT receptors, so liposomal vitamin C should help them too - getting vitamin C into their cells w/o insulin

6. liposomal encapsulated glucose - if liposomes can encapsulate glucose - then this may be a product for both Type I and Type 2 diabetics.
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Re: Continuous Glucose Monitor - Says it is affected by High Dose Vitamin C

Post Number:#35  Post by ofonorow » Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:08 pm

lots of ideas in the last post

Focusing on "breaking" liposomes, and targeting their release, reading the paper, (thank you johnwen!) these ulatrasound sensitive are large liposomes with a lot of air inside... They mention other ways that have been investigated, e.g. electric fields, magnetic fields, temperature, visible light, pH and ultrasound.

It would be something if a strong magnet - over the cancer (or the solution) worked the same way - to release the contents.

And I suppose, we have a tool to help run experiments. Run magnets, fields, etc. over the liposomal C in a glass, and see what "breaks" the capsules allowing the C to be measured by the Libre.(Hopefully what breaks liposomes won't break ordinary cells :-)
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Re: Continuous Glucose Monitor - Says it is affected by High Dose Vitamin C

Post Number:#36  Post by Johnwen » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:12 pm

It would be something if a strong magnet - over the cancer (or the solution) worked the same way - to release the contents.


I don’t think this idea would work to well because acid and iron don’t work very well together. :(
However there are other things they could use it with.
Here’s some reading on magnetic use!

https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/ko ... 6010/_html

I’m still inclined to think ultra sound would be a way to go with V-C Lipo‘s!

Here’s some more on this!

http://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlep ... c7ra02065a
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Re: Continuous Glucose Monitor - Says it is affected by High Dose Vitamin C

Post Number:#37  Post by ofonorow » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:51 am

Image

The above Libre graph is for an 8 hour preliminary experiment with Mercola's "liposomes." While easy to run, I take the 10 grams around 10 o'clock, go to sleep and wake 8 hours later. Ouila. However, unless I eat before 4 p.m. - the stomach is probably not empty, the GI tract is still absorbing dinner, so some of the picture is from dinner. So this is a little different from the 2:00 a.m. start for the 8-hour PANACEA (below).

Now, to Mercola's credit, the footprints are similar.

Hours 1-2
In the first two hours, not much happened with Panacea. Although after the initial drop hour one, there was a rise in hour two.
Mercola's first hour was similar, but the peaks were higher. And the upward peak earlier. This is subtle, but may mean
the product is "less encapsulated" as the vitamin C is measured right away, i.e., perhaps a little more vitamin C was detected the first hour from the Mercola product.

Hours 3-6
Panacea's plot shows an almost straight line rise over these four hours.
Mercola's plot was similar, but flatter. Initial rise, but then flat.

Hours 7-8

Both began to decline.

Mercola's does fit within the Liposomal footprint, of the vitamin appearing after 2 hours, and lasting for 4 more hours.

Because this method is easy - the experiment is run during sleep - I'll run the Livonlabs Lypo-C tomorrow. At some point, I'd like to run a DIY - emulsion to see and compare its characteristics.

Image
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Re: Continuous Glucose Monitor - Says it is affected by High Dose Vitamin C

Post Number:#38  Post by Johnwen » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:15 pm

What I was thinking on seeing these readings is, It would be nice to see a baseline!

What I mean is take the readings just doing your normal activates and med’s and V-c dosing and not doing any kind of V-c other then your normal amount and let’s see what happens overnight so we can see if the Gulps are changing anything.

I’d still like to see what happens after zapping these products with a ultrasound. They aren’t all that expensive and they don’t just sit there after because they can be used to clean Glass’s, Jewelry etc. Amazon got them from @ $30 and up. You don’t need to go high end because even the cheaper ones are strong enough to break and release a Lipo.

Heck here’s one for $20

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001D ... 7301205011

Here’s one @ $90 for DIY Liposome making. It’s got a heater too.

https://www.amazon.com/iSonic-P4810-BHK ... eater&th=1

Added this one they say this one is for making V-c Lipo's it's got a cup and holder that fits in the top. Which is a bout $10 cheaper then buying them individually. It's $119

https://www.amazon.com/iSonic-P4810-BHK ... eater&th=1

So you can see their not Bank Breaking expensive!!
But as you’ll see they can be!! :wink:
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Re: Continuous Glucose Monitor - Says it is affected by High Dose Vitamin C

Post Number:#39  Post by ofonorow » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:21 am

Thanks for the links - and great minds... I too was thinking of doing a baseline... But yesterday's experiment messed that up.

Image

Yesterday, I repeated the 10 g vitamin C (11.3 gram sodium ascorbate) IV, but this time the experiment included extra insulin. The thinking was that perhaps the reason the residual vitamin C in the interstitial fluids was so high is because my insulin is low. And that there would be better cellular absorption, like the liposomal, with insulin present -- so insulin was increased for this experiment by a lot. Apparently, I was wrong about this. My normal long acting insulin (lantis) in the a.m. was increased from 35 to 40 units. Then before the IV, my sugars were high enough to support 12 unit of fast-acting, which was injected. When the IV started, 5 more units, then 6 more, then 5 more, then 6 more - so 34 units of fast acting insulin had been injected.

The IV started at 2:00 p.m.. It is hard to see happened from the photo, but the interstitial "sugars" took off, this time after only 5 minutes (not 20 like the first time). Same error where it stopped reporting measurements - just the empty space. Once its passed 400 mg/dl you see the straight line at the top. Then by minute 35, the reading had sailed past the HI (500 mg/dl) and pretty much stayed there. The IV was faster, (completed in 30 minutes), but the effect may have helped rid the blood of vitamin C, but the insulin didn't help get C out of the fluids, and perhaps the extra insulin blocked the vitamin? Maybe by allowing glucose to use the available GLUT receptors? Ely's Glucose-Ascorbate Antagonism.

Not what was expected. Insulin might be important for some cells, e.g.white blood cells, but it may not be all that important regarding vitamin C entry to most cells. Any other interpretation?

So the IV ended around minute 30. I took a reading around minute 25 with the Roche accu-check, and it read 162 (supposedly glucose) when the Libre was reporting 362 mg/dl.

Then the low blood sugar crisis began at minute 45. I have come to know what low blood sugar feels like, the very unpleasant light-headed feeling is unmistakable, yet my Libre reader was reading over 500 mg/dl and I was in a crisis! Started taking 4 gram glucose tablets, took around 6 before running out. Made it to Walgreens for more. May have taken 15 to 20 glucose pills in total.

Felt better arriving at home. But I was flying blind. The meter was reporting the high 400s, but how much insulin to take? It stayed flat-lined high until 10 p.m., Then perhaps 15 units of insulin, and it then dropped in a straight line to 124 mg/dl in a couple of hours during the night.


Code: Select all

10 gram IV/C (11.3 g sodium ascorbate) Intravenously with added insulin (34 units)
Baseline  158, 160

Time       Reading
0             139
5             148
10           196
14           241
20           294
25           362   (bag emptied -  Accu Check 162)
30           418
35           Hi  (> 500)
40           Hi
45           Hi  ( Started taking glucose tablets to stay conscious)
50           Hi
55           Hi
60 - through 8 hours   HI to upper 400s.
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Re: Continuous Glucose Monitor - Says it is affected by High Dose Vitamin C

Post Number:#40  Post by ofonorow » Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:15 pm



Questions.

#1 Does the product contain Vitamin C?
#2 Can the meter read the vitamin encased in liposomes?

Ran a crude sanity check against a control solution of PANACEA in 1 deciliter of distilled water.

Put quite a bit of liposomal C in the deciliter - half a cap full - and FreeStyle Light finger price meter read HI

Cut the concentration by increasing the water to 2 deciliters - still read HI

Measured 200 mg of liposomal (know the vitamin C is less than total weight) and put in deciliter of distilled water. Reading was 369 mg/dl.

Answers.

#1. Product does have vitamin C
#2. The vitamin C in liposomes can be detected in solution with the meter.

However, when I ran a control - tested just distilled water, I got a reading of 105 mg/dl
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Re: Continuous Glucose Monitor - Says it is affected by High Dose Vitamin C

Post Number:#41  Post by Johnwen » Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:49 pm

First when you load with Insulin you are driving the glucose into the cells.
The net results is Hypoglycemia!

In a non diabetic human who consumes, V-c insulin production is stimulated this high insulin situation causes the glucose levels to drop and V-c is driven into storage and insulin has no affect on the SVCT1 SVCT2 transporters.
Although in as non diabetic person the pancreas production of insulin is regulated.

However excess insulin added externally does stimulate the conversion of AA to DHAA in this process a oxidative stress is brought into the picture which then in turn causes a flash oxidation to occur and if the levels are high enough can cause damage!
The DHAA is transported through the fluid to the cells where it’s converted when it’s taken into the cells, in the mean time it just seats there waiting it’s turn to get in.
The extracellular fluid now contains high amounts of DHAA. Which is what the Libre meter is reading.
Those that don’t make it in are moved to the kidney’s and are also used to enhance bone rebuilding. The effect on bone cells when Sodium is added to the picture also enhances this action.

In a type 1 diabetic the lack of insulin causes the bones to weaken which can lead to osteopenia and osteoporosis!
The liver also senses the unused insulin that in the blood and increases cholesterol production.

In an IV situation this flash oxidation only takes place for a short period of time at first and the conversion is modulated by the flow of the IV! You don’t get this effect because the production of insulin is also modulated by the amount entering the system.

Gulping and adding insulin causes the GI system to absorb more V-c into the body which in turn starts the process more rapidly!!

So there you have the good and the bad of what you did!
To summarize you removed or lessened severely the available Glucose and you where reading the DHAA which was sitting around in the fluids around the cells waiting to be taken into the cells or excreted. This also increased the store levels of DHAA in your kidney’s and adipose fat tissue and add some bone health!


My advice Don’t do it Again!

Check the meter with tap water???
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Re: Continuous Glucose Monitor - Says it is affected by High Dose Vitamin C

Post Number:#42  Post by ofonorow » Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:02 am

Thanks for the analysis.. And I don't need any encouragement NOT TO DO THAT AGAIN.. I guess I was hoping to see more of the vitamin going into cells, thus a lower reading, like we think we are seeing with the True-liposomal. There is such a stark contrast..

I used distilled water for the control of the liposomal control solution test.
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Re: Continuous Glucose Monitor - Says it is affected by High Dose Vitamin C

Post Number:#43  Post by ofonorow » Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:24 am

I purchased that most expensive ultrasound in your list... Any instructions on a protocol to break the liposomes before I gulp is appreciated. (I started by freezing one bottle - thinking that alone may break them.)

I've been watching my nightly "baseline" and notice that every time I get up during the night, the blood sugar rises.. Not a lot, but every time.
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Re: Continuous Glucose Monitor - Says it is affected by High Dose Vitamin C

Post Number:#44  Post by Johnwen » Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:25 pm

The first thing I would do with this is get out the glucose (V-C) meter and some strips. Then do a base check by dumping the lipo in the cup and checking!

Then do 1 minute checks.
Most Liposome’s can be cracked with short period’s of sonifacation by using short periods, This keeps the lipo’s from reforming into smaller sizes particles.

I see they are saying 2-30min. Cycles, “No heat,” when making homemade Lipo.
Which is fine for making smaller size lipo’s providing your in fact starting with a liposome.

https://actavet.vfu.cz/media/pdf/avb_2008077020285.pdf

I would also start with a known high quality product. That way you’ll know when your cracking them. Then you can also use this as a base time.
If you can’t get any results then add some heat and check.


This is me venting on DYI LIPO Ideas !!!

I’m still at odds about just throwing lecithin and V-C in a water mix then zapping it and getting a liposome?
The problem I’m seeing here is lecithin is NOT A LIPOSOME!
To make a Liposome you must make it first!
Then open it up and allow the product to be captured!
I detailed this before in the topic about homemade Lipo.

Here’s a link that tells about this process in detail!
Starting on PDF Page 11 paper Page 2 Paragraph 1.3 PREPARATION OF LIPOSOMES.
It also details More on what goes on when you do the capturing process.
Cracking them is just reverse of the last of the steps in making them only shorter time duration!!

https://scholarsmine.mst.edu/cgi/viewco ... ers_theses
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Re: Continuous Glucose Monitor - Says it is affected by High Dose Vitamin C

Post Number:#45  Post by ofonorow » Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:08 am

Johnwen wrote:The first thing I would do with this is get out the glucose (V-C) meter and some strips. Then do a base check by dumping the lipo in the cup and checking!


Done - See topic #40. It seems the test strips detect the vitamin inside professional liposomes, so I'm not sure what we are looking for?

Then do 1 minute checks.
Most Liposome’s can be cracked with short period’s of sonifacation by using short periods, This keeps the lipo’s from reforming into smaller sizes particles.

PANACEA's have been measured at 150 nanometers already.. I think I've seen one reference to 130 nanometer lipos, but you cannot get much smaller.

I see they are saying 2-30min. Cycles, “No heat,” when making homemade Lipo.
Which is fine for making smaller size lipo’s providing your in fact starting with a liposome.

https://actavet.vfu.cz/media/pdf/avb_2008077020285.pdf


So that seems to mean - add heat ?

I would also start with a known high quality product. That way you’ll know when your cracking them. Then you can also use this as a base time.
If you can’t get any results then add some heat and check.


Since the sticks can measure C inside the fat capsules (liposomes) I'm still unsure of the "test" to make sure the high quality liposomes are broken. I know that after freezing the taste is a clue - like biting sharp pieces of glass.. Very different texture.


This is me venting on DYI LIPO Ideas !!!

I’m still at odds about just throwing lecithin and V-C in a water mix then zapping it and getting a liposome?
The problem I’m seeing here is lecithin is NOT A LIPOSOME!


I think you are correct, especially after learning that the material that makes liposome capsules has specific properties.
This property and thus natural process is described here:https://youtu.be/KQA9YlhgTQc If lecithin had that property, everyone would use lecithin (I noticed that Mercola does list only lecithin). The property is that one side of the lipid molecule is attracted to water, and the other side of the same molecule is attracted to fats... This causes the molecules together to form a spherical shape - like an early cell.


To make a Liposome you must make it first!
Thenhttp://www.vitaminc.foundation/foru ... 3&p=51445# open it up and allow the product to be captured!
I detailed this before in the topic about homemade Lipo.


Its not just making a liposome - the lipid material must have the property of forming nanometer size spheres. Why these phospholipids are used. It seems to me that if what you want to add to the capsules is already in the water - then the spheres will form around it, but I suppose if you have liposomes, and can "open them up" temporarily, that might be another way to add payload. Not an expert and don't want to be.

Here’s a link that tells about this process in detail!
Starting on PDF Page 11 paper Page 2 Paragraph 1.3 PREPARATION OF LIPOSOMES.
It also details More on what goes on when you do the capturing process.


I've felt from the beginning that even the DIY "liposomes", even if not true liposomes, are better than powder in the sense that more of the vitamin C is carried intact into the blood stream. We may soon have a test of this using the Libre and interstitial fluids - if "real" liposomes are instantly absorbed by cells, that can now be measured. If the emulsions bring in more C, but it is not instantly absorbed, we should see higher levels, sooner in the Libre tests. A lot of ifs...

Cracking them is just reverse of the last of the steps in making them only shorter time duration!!

https://scholarsmine.mst.edu/cgi/viewco ... ers_theses


I'll read this, but I'm still in the dark. The purpose of doing this is to prove that there are 10 grams of vitamin C in the 50 mL of professional liposomes. In theory, if we break the C out of the liposomes, we should see a footprint closer to taking ascorbic acid powder. But if the procedure "reforms" the liposomes, the evidence will be much smaller. The question is how to break them and keep them broken.


Added - Quotes from johnwen's reference

1.1. STABILITY OF LIPOSOMES
Liposomes may undergo chemical degradation or physical changes during
preparation or upon storage. The lipids used in the preparation of liposomes are
unsaturated and hence susceptible to oxidation. The higher the level of unsaturation, the
more susceptible they are. Thus, liposomes should be prepared in the absence of oxygen
and procedures which involve high temperatures should be avoided. They should be
stored at low temperatures and in the dark.


So add ozone, strong light, heat.. right?

Hand-shaken vesicles may be sonicated to form more stables structures. For
example, if hand-shaken vesicles are sonicated for around 30 minutes the extra energy
allows the lipids to rearrange into a more stable SUV type of structur

Drugs may be entrapped into vesicles prepared by freeze drying. In this method,
liposomes are made by adding the solution with the material to be entrapped. The
resulting solution is freeze-dried and rehydrated. The material to be entrapped is in close
contact with the lipids, so upon reforming more material is captured. This method is only
important for entrapment

Vesicles can also be made by freeze drying. In this method, a lipid is dissolved in
tertbutyl alcohol and mixed with a sucrose solution in a single phase. The dispersion is
freeze-dried and rehydrated This method was used because it requires fewer steps and the
liposomes produced are fairly mono-disperse and small in size, which are desired for
these studies. Also it is known that freeze-drying increases the stability of liposomes
(Crowe et al., 1986).

Measurements of zeta potential of liposomes have been made to determine their
stability. Carrion et al. (1994) investigated the effect of incorporating phosphatic acid on
the zeta potential of PC liposomes in the presence of neutral electrolytes. Experiments
were done at pH 7.2 (PC liposomes are negatively charged at this pH) and 25 oC. They
showed that increasing the concentration of phosphatic acid in lipid bilayers resulted in
higher zeta potentials and physical stability of the liposomes.[/quote]

What I think we learn from this paper is A) you can make true liposomes by hand - hand shaking, using the right PHOSPHOLIPIDS. They will form when water is added back, and "sonification" can make them more stable. THE PHOSPHOLIPID MATERIAL IS KEY. (Does anyone have a reference that lecithin has the required property to make liposomes????)

Given this, the only way I can think of to literally break the liposome in water - and keep it broken - is to remove the water. (Otherwise the natural tendency of these phospholipids in water is to form spheres - and whatever is in their watery interior is captured.)

Since we are interested in knowing whether the product contains vitamin C, why not "freeze dry" - or evaporate the liposomes.. Break them so they will stay broken, then consume the 10 grams and see what happens? (Otherwise, I think with TRUE liposomal forming materials, it will be hard to keep them broken
.
Owen R. Fonorow, Follow #OWENRFONOROW at twitter


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