VITAMIN C CURES: Heart Disease (Formerly Practicing Medicine Without A License ?)

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Re: Practicing Medicine Without A License ?

Post Number:#46  Post by ofonorow » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:35 am

Miro wrote:Untreated diseases tend to follow unpredictable patterns. Usually there is a common pattern, but there are lots of exceptions too. To assume otherwise is a naive approach, if you ask me.

And you base this on what, intuition?

One has to really get into doctor's shoes and examine history of all of the patients with untreated disease for one to see that there are all kinds of "mysterious cures" in there.


Are you saying you are a doctor? I just pointed you to a book that contains exactly what you are asking for - ONE MAN ALONE (Gonzalez) - documented support for a cure for cancer. This book not only provides medical records that prove beyond a reasonable doubt the diagnosis of cancer, but Dr. Gonzalez also reminds the reader of the ordinary course of that particular cancer using the latest accepted medical data.

But more interesting than that are observations of people using different kinds of alternative therapies. For me, it is enough to see how many people swear that homeopathy works to be really skeptical of testimonials. There are many more homeopathic testimonials than there are Vitamin C ones, with homeopathy being ultra-popular, NHS-funded and whatnot. And that's one of those treatments that have been thoroughly tested and proven to be nothing more than placebo.

You seem certain that there is nothing to homeopathy. Bias? And I am skeptical about your claim that homeopathy has been "thoroughly tested." By whom? I am willing to spend a little time down this path, but where did the money come from? (There is a great book by Dan Haley, Politics in Medicine, that includes one spectacular case of a homeopathic agent:
http://www.amazon.com/Politics-Healing-Suppression-Manipulation-American/dp/0970115008/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1308760162&sr=1-1 This case may be able to make you question your belief that homeopathy is a "placebo effect." (I was probably leaning more to your view before reading this book, but we digress. )

For example, if there was nothing to this, one would expect a lot of people, if not the majority to complain that it didn't help them, but this has been rare over the years. Why would that be in your opinion?


I'd say people generally don't notice when treatments aren't working. Unless they were skeptical of them in the first place, or were on a trial. But disregarding that, there is something Vitamin C has that gives lots of weight to the idea that it is a powerful placebo - Vitamin C does good. Basically, lots of people are malnourished. If these people started taking Vitamin C they would start feeling a lot better. This, combined with the hope, can create a positive reinforcement loop, in a way that active placebos do.

In this case, they die. In our reports, we have people who describe themselves as being in terrible pain, cannot easily walk across a room, have been told there are no more medical options, and happened to have access to the Internet. Within 10 days, report after report describes the end of the heart pain. Some placebo! Within 30 days, we have videos of these people painting their homes! They contacted us because they were amazed, as were we, until it became routine.

And they were ALL taking standard heart medications. Why wouldn't these have acted as placebos?

So you didn't answer the question why people who bought Pauling therapy products haven't called to complain.


My question to you: if Vitamin C is such a powerful treatment, why isn't it spreading like a meme?

I don't know that it isn't. But I do know that there are powerful forces arrayed against it.

We have tried to merely publicize the fact that Pauling had made these claims. (Maybe he was wrong?) Tried for years, based on Pauling's reputation and we have failed to get even a story about this on any national news publication or media outlet. I suspect that one or more positive stories would lead many people to try it on their own, and this would solve the problem of our number one killer - unless the supply of vitamin C runs out, which is a possibility. (If you think Fox News might be interested, take note of their advertisers! Big Pharma may be their largest advertiser.)

The Linus Pauling Institute has not helped. If a media outlet were to call those people, they would merely quote the mantra "there have been no studies." True. These folks have apparently renounced everything Pauling wrote in HOW TO LIVE LONGER AND FEEL BETTER, but that is another story.

The lid has been kept on this, primarily because of the lack of studies. A major purpose of my book was to point this out and implore scientists to run a study or two. (There are developments brewing that might break this wide open... Stay tuned.)


There has been a sustained and deliberate attempt to discredit vitamin C, and it has worked, at least w/r to the medical profession.


But aren't there funded, published, properly randomized and controlled, large-scale RCT's that showed positive results? Like effectiveness of Vitamin C in treating AIDS. I think there was one recently. I'd say if there was such a serious effort to discredit Vitamin C this would never have been published.


You need to catch up on your reading in this area. Such studies do exist, usually run in different parts of the world, esp. Japan, but none of them make it into the standard medical textbooks.

Pauling brought the tip of the iceberg of this "bias" to the attention of the public in his book, discussing the fraud that was the Mayo clinic 'study" of vitamin C and cancer. Positive studies of nutrients that compete with pharmaceuticals rarely make it past the peer-review process of the major medical journals. (Again, look at who places the advertisements in the medical journals.) So these studies are instead published in alternative publications, such as the Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine, studies which have historically not been cataloged in PUBMED.GOV, so invisible to mainstream researchers.

There is one interesting "accidental" exception. There is one RCT where vitamin C (and magnesium) were given to cardiovascular patients and the results were published in JAMA. The authors ignored the spectacular positive effects, but the data is provided. Vitamin C and Magnesium were used as placebos, and given to both groups. One group was given EDTA, and both the placebo and EDTA group had the same results. (Pretty crafty to use vitamin C and magnesium to show little effect of EDTA!)

Anyway, increased treadmill times were measured in BOTH groups, results, by the way, which no other medication can match! Per the study, the increase in treadmill time in both groups was statistically significant, but dismissed as a "placebo effect." I searched the literature for equivalent positive results, and other than the steroid hormone testosterone, no other drug or drug/nutrient produced such significant increases in treadmill time. I was particularly interested in results for the statin cholesterol lowering drugs, but they had no effect on treadmill time.

JAMA STUDY: JAMA Jan 23/30 2002 RANDOMIZED, DOUBLE-BLIND CONTROLLED TRIAL IN HUMANS FOUND STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT 60-SECOND TREADMILL EXERCISE IMPROVEMENTS IN 5000 MG VITAMIN C GROUPS [Chelation Therapy for Ischemic Heart Disease: A Randomized Controlled Trial, Knudtson, et. al. JAMA, Jan 23/30, 2002 - Vol 287, No 4. Pp 481-486]
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
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Re: Practicing Medicine Without A License ?

Post Number:#47  Post by Dolev » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:47 am

Vitamin C benefits are the placebo effect in thousands of studies.Hah, funny. :lol:

There was a study that C makes macrophages move faster and eat better. The placebo effect even fools macrophages!
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Re: Practicing Medicine Without A License ?

Post Number:#48  Post by Miro » Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:06 pm

Alternative therapies actually do get a lot of media exposure. In fact, a lot more than proper science does. And there is a reason behind that: fancy cures are more interesting than science, as science doesn't come up with cure solutions at such a fast rate. So medias will always pick fancy cures over proper science. And this is where you meet your competition - you do not actually compete with mainstream medicine, you compete with so many other alternative treatments that are better at coming up with next fancy, ultra-cool cure. Vitamin C, unfortunately, is an old story so it's hard to get on TV again, unless you introduce a twist, like what Patrick Holford did, who appears regularly on TV and radio in UK. So does Matthias Rath, with all those "drugs kill you" adverts. I can't think of anyone else at the moment, but these two appear enough to say that there is plenty of media exposure for Vitamin C in UK. If that's not much, then the level of exposure of Vitamin C in South Africa should suffice. With all that exposure, I'd expect Vitamin C to spread really wide if it was that effective.

And you base this on what, intuition?


I base this on my observation as someone who is not a doctor. However, I'm pretty sure doctors will agree with me. It's something you'd expect anyways. It's something that you need to assume before deciding "yes, all diseases follow the same pattern".

I just pointed you to a book that contains exactly what you are asking for - ONE MAN ALONE (Gonzalez) - documented support for a cure for cancer. This book not only provides medical records that prove beyond a reasonable doubt the diagnosis of cancer, but Dr. Gonzalez also reminds the reader of the ordinary course of that particular cancer using the latest accepted medical data.


Didn't have time to read the book. I was merely pointing out the obvious - that diseases don't necessarily follow the same pattern.

And they were ALL taking standard heart medications. Why wouldn't these have acted as placebos?


For a treatment to work as a placebo it must be convincing on a subconscious level. Drugs struggle with that because:

1. they are boring and everyone takes them [cliche]
2. there are side-effects [disclosure]
3. doctors tell you drugs won't cure you [statistics]
4. doctors who prescribe them are annoying/scary [inconvenience]
5. because matthias rath says they will kill you [conspiracy theorists]

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Re: Practicing Medicine Without A License ?

Post Number:#49  Post by ofonorow » Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:36 pm

We live in different worlds (at least different countries).
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Re: Practicing Medicine Without A License ?

Post Number:#50  Post by Dolev » Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:18 am

Different worlds certainly. I was also reading the post trying to figure out where to even begin.
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Re: Practicing Medicine Without A License ?

Post Number:#51  Post by cynthia386 » Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:51 am

Why vitamin c is not spreading like a meme?

I have talked to dozens of people about taking 'high' dosages of vitamin C. Only 2 have tried it. A big stumbling point is that the idea of taking more than 1 pill a day is too radical an idea. Yet people will consume a whole package of cough drops in a couple of days.

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Re: Practicing Medicine Without A License ?

Post Number:#52  Post by cynthia386 » Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:47 am

Owen, if you want feedback to tell you how effective your formula is, include a pre-stamped postcard with your product. Then you will know how many customers are getting reversals, improvement, or no improvement.

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Re: Practicing Medicine Without A License ?

Post Number:#53  Post by ofonorow » Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:10 am

A big stumbling point is that the idea of taking more than 1 pill a day is too radical an idea.


First, customers continuing to purchase Pauling therapy products is the primary reason we know they benefit. People who do not feel they benefit to not stay on products for long. And their key selling points are being a drink (which avoids all the pills otherwise necessary.)

But there are other reasons this news hasn't exploded, not the least of which is that most people will ask their doctors what they think.

I found it very interesting that we sold to an Amish community. After the first person recovered from a serious heart condition in a short amount of time, the entire community became interested and it took off like wildfire. It showed what can happen in a community that isn't constantly brainwashed by television and the media, when they can see the results for themselves and intimately trust their neighbors, etc.
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Re: Practicing Medicine Without A License ?

Post Number:#54  Post by cynthia386 » Sun Aug 28, 2011 2:04 pm

I think you are right about people being too influenced by doctors, the media, and other opinions. I belong to Mensa, and I can tell you that they are going to ride the conventional medicine path straight to an early grave. They pay too much attention to expert opinion, and ignore their own experience. Advertising and such works really well on intelligent people.

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Re: Practicing Medicine Without A License ?

Post Number:#55  Post by ofonorow » Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:49 am

Dear Owen Fonorow,

"I have been communicating with Sally Jewell for some time. I have not read a book that electrified me as much, and that answered questions that I had now been able to find answers to. I was mesmerized when your info clicked with what I had studied so hard before this. Owen, I have read volumes of books, newsletters, email entries from authentic and knowledgeable sources, etc. I belong to five libraries to find enough material. Since I do not listen to TV, I have the time to pursue other means of information. ( I have been in multi-media P.R., sales and advertising for 25 years, and I know what the media usually has to offer... I wrote a lot of the hype.)

Your writing is so easy to read, basic-like 2 plus 2 equals 4. I suggest that my students each read it for their own education and for their family and friends, especially if they have any heart problems.

By the way, I am deeply moved to be communicating with you. I am so impressed with the research you did to write such a book! It is indeed a breakthrough, not only for me but for many, many others.

Thank you,

Marna L'Amie
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My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: Practicing Medicine Without A License ?

Post Number:#56  Post by Miro » Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:15 am

Vitamin C is mainstream in South Africa and it's not a secret in Europe either. Megadoses might put off some people, but if VitC gives clear results and people observe this you'd expect it to become meme.

Code: Select all

They pay too much attention to expert opinion, and ignore their own experience. Advertising and such works really well on intelligent people.


Actually it's totally not about "expert opinion" (at least among those who really care about science). It's all about methodology these days. If all you do is rely on personal experience then you sure are going to get some serious eyebrows.

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Re: Practicing Medicine Without A License ?

Post Number:#57  Post by ofonorow » Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:01 am

If all you do is rely on personal experience then you sure are going to get some serious eyebrows.

I do now want to spoil anyone's thunder, but one of our top experts (not Dr. Levy) is almost finished with a book that will destroy at least one of the tenets of modern medicine. I mean utterly destroy their methodology.
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My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: Practicing Medicine Without A License ?

Post Number:#58  Post by Miro » Fri Sep 30, 2011 1:35 pm

Slightly relevant:

I stumbled across this Ben's article in Guardian today, which is about starting something like wikitrials, a community project for running trials over the Internet. It's one of those things I always wished they've existed. Could definitively aid in proving the effectiveness of Vitamin C without resorting to testimonials. Quite amused it hasn't been done yet.

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Re: Practicing Medicine Without A License ?

Post Number:#59  Post by ofonorow » Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:53 am

If the question is about science and studies behind vitamin C, please come back after reading Primal Panacea by
Thomas Levy.

This "best ever" vitamin C book, and a new one that I expect to announce here soon, should cover all bases of "raised eyebrows."
t
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: Practicing Medicine Without A License ?

Post Number:#60  Post by twowheelfree » Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:25 am

Volume 2 out yet?


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