My Journey

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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skwoodwiva
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My Journey

Post Number:#1  Post by skwoodwiva » Sun May 28, 2017 7:37 am

I will add more here, no need to quote the Op.
See here for now. viewtopic.php?p=47459&sid=a4b60b37288d96c1d20bdbdfa5c26a59#p47459
Is 8 mg/dl an adequate blood level for VC?

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Re: My Journey

Post Number:#2  Post by ofonorow » Mon May 29, 2017 1:06 am

I still am on a very low dose of the Lovostatin, BTW, I understand it is red yeast rice, basically.


Good question, that tells me there is still "pull" of vitamin C from your blood stream, into tissues or making collagen.

The easiest understanding of how the kidney's work to regulate vitamin C out of the body (at amounts over 1.5 mg/dl) is probably gained by reading Hickey and Saul's VITAMIN C: THE REAL STORY. Its like a bucket with a hole. All amounts above the hole (1.5 mg.dl) will drain at a rate of 30 minutes by half. So the half life about 1.5 mg/dl is 30 minutes.

At .8 you are below the hole, so the kidney drain is not the issue.

We know from the Hickey/Roberts landmark ASCORBATE: THE SCIENCE OF VITAMIN C that we can keep our blood levels maximum, at the level of the hole in the bucket, by taking about 250-500 mg every 3 to 4 hours. With the potential loss, depending on the form of vitamin C, we recommend 500 mg - but frequently. By form, since we now know that ascorbic acid reaches the blood stream "instantly", unlike the slower release sodium ascorbate, so the supposed 50% loss may not apply to the first 4000 mg of ascorbic acid taken by mouth.

If you started this kind of low dose, frequent regimen, it would be interesting what your vitamin C levels measured.

Let us know.

And as far as the statin - bad boy or girl.. Read this
https://www.newswithviews.com/Ellison/shane16.htm
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: My Journey

Post Number:#3  Post by skwoodwiva » Mon May 29, 2017 8:57 am

I said 8 not .8. I also said this in this thread & in the other thread which is "My story".
https://mega.nz/#!5IJTGTaT!IFIthqgnJS53 ... ISvcJpnQAM
I also mean adequate as to PT. I do not see much concern in members posts about this blood stat.

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Re: My Journey

Post Number:#4  Post by skwoodwiva » Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:26 pm

I would like to start over, Owen, seeing as I cannot edit the Op & you have miss-advised me as having .8 VC blood concentration when I have 8.
Please delete post 1, 2 & 3
Thank you
Lewis

I have not posted in a while. I had a MI in mid '14 with 2 plain stents. I went until Nov '16 doing what I thought was healthy living. I could go on with that later. Then I had a mild attack, with markers in my blood. They sent me to the cath lab only to declare I was no candidate and I needed CABG.

So I went along, with the county medical advice, mediCal.
I went bananas on diet reform (I am an O blood types): no hexane refined oils, no grains, paleo basically. Fish oil, borage oil, d'ribose, niacin, moringa, Hawthorn berry & more, Mark Houston protocols. This I have continued to present time. Also, vitamin k, selenium, cod livers, EVOO, CoQ10, fermented garlic, fresh turmeric, vit D, carnitine, taurine, beets, D'ribose.
My EF was 30. Lpa was 29 Recovery was hard. About Jan I started PT.
My PT regiment is (now)
3-4g of Target VC + 1 g of IR niacin 6 to 7 times a day
A sippy cup of lysine, proline, elderberry powder to wash each dose down.

A Jan EF was still 30. Mid Jan Lpa 13. All this time I was plagued with leg edema.

Then In Apr a VC test showed 8 mg/dl(.2-1.5 is normal, what is our normal?). EF went 55! My KP cardiologist is astounded. I still am on a very low dose of the Lovostatin, BTW, I understand it is red yeast rice, basically.

About this time I would have spells, crying and leaping for joy! Really many occasions. My mind was sharp now! What is going on?

Edema is gone. I can eat sea salt again. My mind is keen, I believe I have had slow thinking and foggyness for 17 years.
Was I denial in 2007 when aspirin got me through a day.

I run a mile now faster than I have in 25 years.

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Re: My Journey

Post Number:#5  Post by ofonorow » Sat Jun 03, 2017 4:03 am

I am still a little lost. As you say, the reference range for vitamin C is 0.3 to 1.5 mg/dl. See page 2. Ascorbic Acid.
http://www.abim.org/~/media/ABIM%20Public/Files/pdf/exam/laboratory-reference-ranges.pdf

So to have a measurement of 8 is erroneous, unless the blood was sampled within a couple hours of you taking a dose of vitamin C.

If it was taken after fasting, then it was a lab error, or, you have genetics that support too high a level of vitamin C in the blood. (The "hole in the barrel described by Hickey/Saul at 1.5 mg/dl would be at the 8.0 mg/dl in your case.)

This would mean that you are something like a "diabetic" (high levels of vitamin C.)

As Linus Pauling explained, evolution works to find the minimum energy required, as the kidneys must "pump" vitamin C back into circulation. Most people have pumps that keep the blood at least at 1.5 mg/dl. Any more is spilled out the urine.

If your lab measurement is correct, you are an interesting mutant who has the ability to pump back perhaps 4 times more vitamin C into the blood. I would be willing to bet that this higher level is more good than bad.

Also, you might consider trying an Abbott Freestyle glucose monitor, as we might be able to verify that lab measurement.

Do you have a specific short question?
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: My Journey

Post Number:#6  Post by skwoodwiva » Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:49 am

I just thought the blood level might be helpful to know. The sample was taken during my daily dosing of every 3 hours.
I did not track how close it was to a dose.
I would not have considered fasting off of VC as Pauling advises non stop dosing.

Would you not expect VC levels to be abnormal on PT?
.5 to 1.5 for the average person, is it not?

Baffled

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Re: My Journey

Post Number:#7  Post by pamojja » Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:41 pm

ofonorow wrote:Most people have pumps that keep the blood at least at 1.5 mg/dl. Any more is spilled out the urine.

If your lab measurement is correct, you are an interesting mutant who has the ability to pump back perhaps 4 times more vitamin C into the blood.


Since many years I'm posting this one odd study, also here at vitamin C foundation repeatedly, to point out that any more than 1.5 mg/dl is NOT peed out. It only has been so assumed, but never actually measured as in this one study. But it seems nobody is even listening:


Journal of the New Zealand Medical Association, 23-August-2002, Vol 115 No 1160

Glycohaemoglobin and ascorbic acid

Copplestone et al1 (http://www.nzma.org....al/115-1157/25/) identified misleading glycohaemoglobin (GHb) results due to a haemoglobin variant (Hb D Punjab) and listed a number of other possible causes for such false results (ie, haemolytic anaemia, uraemia, lead poisoning, alcoholism, high-dose salicylates and hereditary persistence of foetal haemoglobin).

We have observed a significant "false" lowering of GHb in animals and humans supplementing ascorbic acid (AA) at multigram levels. Mice receiving ~7.5 mg/d (equivalent to > 10 g/day in a 70 kg human) exhibited no decrease in plasma glucose, but a 23% reduction in GHb.2 In humans, supplementation of AA for several months did not lower fasting plasma glucose.3,4 We studied 139 consecutive consenting non-diabetic patients in an oncology clinic. The patients had been encouraged as part of their treatment to supplement AA. Self-reported daily intake varied from 0 to 20 g/day. The plasma AA levels ranged from 11.4 to 517 µmol/L and correlated well with the reported intake. Regression analysis of their GHb and plasma AA values showed a statistically significant inverse association (eg, each 30 µmol/L increase in plasma AA concentration resulted in a decrease of 0.1 in GHb).

A 1 g oral dose of AA can raise plasma AA to 130 µmol/L within an hour and such doses at intervals of about two hours throughout the day can maintain ~230 µmol AA/L.5 Similar levels could also be achieved by use of sustained-release AA tablets. This AA concentration would induce an approximate 0.7 depression in GHb. The GHb assay used in our study, affinity chromatography, is not affected by the presence of AA.3 Thus, unlike the case with Hb D Punjab, our results were not caused by analytical method artifact. More likely, the decreased GHb associated with AA supplementation appears related to an in vivo inhibition of glycation by the elevated plasma AA levels, and not a decrease in average plasma glucose.3 If this is true, the effect has implications not only for interpretation of GHb but also for human ageing, in which glycation of proteins plays a prominent role in age-related degenerative changes.

A misleading GHb lowering of the magnitude we observed can be clinically significant. Current recommendations for diabetics suggest that GHb be maintained at 7, a level that is associated with acceptable control and decreased risk of complications; when GHb exceeds 8, re-evaluation of treatment is necessary.6 Moreover, relatively small increases in average blood sugar (ie, GHb) can accompany adverse reproductive effects. A difference in mean maternal GHb of 0.8 was found for women giving birth to infants without or with congenital malformations.7 In either of these circumstances, an underestimation of GHb could obscure the need for more aggressive intervention.

Vitamin usage is common in New Zealand and after multivitamins, AA is the most often consumed supplement.8 Moreover, diabetics are encouraged to supplement antioxidants, including AA. Thus, it seems prudent for primary care health providers to inquire regarding the AA intake of patients, especially diabetics, when using GHb for diagnosis or treatment monitoring.

Cheryl A Krone
Senior Research Scientist
John TA Ely
Director
Applied Research Institute
PO Box 1925
Palmerston North

References:

Copplestone S, Mackay R, Brennan S. Normal glycated haemoglobin in a patient with poorly controlled diabetes mellitus and haemoglobin D Punjab: implications for assessment of control. NZ Med J 2002;115(1157). URL: http://www.nzma.org....al/115-1157/25/
Krone CA, Ely JTA. Vitamin C and glycohemoglobin revisited. Clin Chem 2001;47(1):148.
Davie SJ, Gould BJ, Yudkin JS. Effect of vitamin C on glycosylation of proteins. Diabetes 1992;41(2):167–73.
Paolisso G, Balbi V, Bolpe C, et al. Metabolic benefits deriving from chronic vitamin C supplementation in aged non-insulin dependent diabetics. J Am Coll Nutr 1995; 14(4):387–392.
Lewin S. Vitamin C: Its Molecular Biology and Medical Potential. New York: Academic Press; 1976.
Kenealey T, Braatvedt G, Scragg R. Screening for type 2 diabetes in non-pregnant adults in New Zealand: practice recommendations. NZ Med J 2002;115(1152):194–6.
Rosenn B, Miodovnik M, Dignan PS, et al. Minor congenital malformation in infants of insulin-dependent diabetic women: association with poor glycemic control. Obstet Gynecol 1990;76:745–9.
Allen T, Thomson WM, Emmerton LM, Poulton R. Nutritional supplement use among 26-year-olds. N Z Med J 2000;113(1113):274–7.


To repeat:

The plasma AA levels ranged from 11.4 to 517 µmol/L and correlated well with the reported intake. ..varied from 0 to 20 g/day.

In other words plasma AA levels ranged from 0,2 to 9,1 mg/dl and correlated well with self-reported intake from 0 to 20 g/d. (devide by 56,78 from µmol/L to mg/dl)

skwoodwiva, your AA plasma levels are to be expected, and those calling you a mutant obviously don't read what has been posted on this forum already multiple times. I'm loosing my patience...

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Re: My Journey

Post Number:#8  Post by skwoodwiva » Sat Jun 03, 2017 7:51 pm

Thank you, pamojja for the detailed reply.

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Re: My Journey

Post Number:#9  Post by skwoodwiva » Sun Jun 04, 2017 2:21 am

ofonorow
I am now more than baffled about your responses here.
I have laid out my daily regiment with an associated positive PT blood stat (VC) and you challenge its clear meaning with claims of it being somehow an error.

I must add this, first blood draw for this test was not enough of a quantity, they had to do it over. When they did I insisted they draw another vile just in case. It also took a lot of persuasion to get Kaiser Permanente to allow this test.

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Re: My Journey

Post Number:#10  Post by Lunes Payling » Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:40 am

I have no idea what the meaning of the posted study is supposed to be.

As far as your blood levels, skwoodwiva, you say you were not fasting and that the blood was drawn during your regular dosing, so I agree you are not a mutant. You took a picture of a moment in time, and that reading has very little meaning. I suppose you can make the statement that your high dosing is getting in to the blood stream.

Consider that if you had been fasting, meaning that any excess in the blood above the "hole in the barrel" (i.e., the kidney pumps threshold) had been allowed to drain, then you would have an idea, within the normal range, what kind of vitamin C drain there is for your tissues.

The effect is little different than glucose - rising after a meal, but brought back down to normal via insulin.

Or cholesterol, which does vary depending on the meal.

The most interesting lab measure is steady state - in these cases, after fasting.

Yes, vitamin C blood levels vary depending on oral intake or intravenous administration. Many have measured vitamin C that arrives in the urine, and both Cathcart and Pauling believed that fully half of the ascorbate they took by mouth exits through the urine, especially at the high dosages both men consumed, or Cathcart recommended to his patients.

Hickey/Roberts developed their Dynamic Flow theory which explains, among other things, how to keep vitamin C levels at a high steady state, and why vitamin C is flowing through the body all the time (or should be) to help keep us healthy, and free of toxins. Vitamin C in the urine is a good thing.



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Re: My Journey

Post Number:#11  Post by skwoodwiva » Sun Jun 04, 2017 9:13 am

Lunes Payling
"I have no idea what the meaning of the posted study is supposed to be."

It supports my experience. Thinking back on the time of the last draw, it about in-between a dosing of 18g 6x a day. I now do 24g 7x. So 16 hours of the day my VC blood concentration is likely in the range of 8 or more. This is also during the time of most stress. I work as an commercial HVACR serviceman.
I have read many testimonials of large dosing but only 1 or 2 times a day. I never thought this was wise.

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Re: My Journey

Post Number:#12  Post by pamojja » Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:19 pm

Lunes Payling wrote:I have no idea what the meaning of the posted study is supposed to be.


It means high ascorbic acid plasma levels - which are considered cytotoxic and thought only possible with IV - are indeed possible to reach orally too. Just measure to go for sure, since there are variations with individuals, their preconditions and different doses.
Last edited by pamojja on Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: My Journey

Post Number:#13  Post by pamojja » Sun Jun 04, 2017 5:01 pm

skwoodwiva wrote:I have read many testimonials of large dosing but only 1 or 2 times a day. I never thought this was wise.


The reason I recommend testing AA plasma levels while on protocol is because I tried it once and sort of failed. Though I took 36 g of ascorbic acid while otherwise fasting the preceding 12 hours, my plasma levels came back at 2,3 mg/dl only.

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Re: My Journey

Post Number:#14  Post by skwoodwiva » Sun Jun 04, 2017 6:03 pm

Thanks pam...
I have never fasted as to food while on VC. I am not sure if you mean something other than the plain meaning. Why would one want to eliminate food while on VC. I do take it as far before meals as possible but 3 hours is a narrow window and sometimes if I am too near a meal I double my dose. If after a meal I may triple it.

BTW, my VC concentration of 8 coinsides with the range in the study! ~18 g would be 8.

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Re: My Journey

Post Number:#15  Post by pamojja » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:59 am

skwoodwiva wrote:Why would one want to eliminate food while on VC. I do take it as far before meals as possible but 3 hours is a narrow window and sometimes if I am too near a meal I double my dose. If after a meal I may triple it.

BTW, my VC concentration of 8 coinsides with the range in the study! ~18 g would be 8.


Yes, your measurement correlates spot on with the study. The reason I otherwise fasted on taking my first AA plasma test was, because of taking other blood-tests at the same time which require fasting.


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