Dehydroascorbic = MUCH higher blood levels of VitC ?

This is where the best forum discussions are preserved for posterity.

Moderator: ofonorow

rmb60
Enthusiast
Enthusiast
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 6:41 pm
Location: Adelaide AUSTRALIA
Contact:

Dehydroascorbic = MUCH higher blood levels of VitC ?

Post Number:#1  Post by rmb60 » Sat Sep 13, 2014 8:33 pm


davea0511
Enthusiast
Enthusiast
Posts: 120
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:49 am
Location: Boise, Idaho
Contact:

Re: Dehydroascorbic = MUCH higher blood levels of VitC ?

Post Number:#2  Post by davea0511 » Sat Sep 20, 2014 6:18 pm

This is not good advice, imho. He is defining vitamin C as two different forms of vitamin C, DHAA, and AA, as if they both are equally beneficial to the body.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

DHA A (normally referred to as DHA, even though the term DHA is already widely used referring to Omega3 FA) is oxidized vitamin C and there is quite a bit of data that suggests that more than your normal intake of DHA might *not* be a good thing.

AA, which is 99% of what you are using when you buy a bottle of regular vitamin C ... this form donates a bioavailable electron at the cellular level and provides an alternate pathway for aerobic ADP -> ATP synthesis (see http://crystal.res.ku.edu/taksnotes/Bio ... chp_17.pdf, pages 9-11), which is the main reason why vitamin C gives you energy. It is also the reason it doesn't provide energy to cancer cells (which don't utilize the aerobic process). In fact for some people (self included) megadosing at night will make them sleepless. This conversion is very possibly why vitamin C provides protection to normal cells from oxidative stress exhibited by the mediation of H2O2 at the cellular level which is responsible for cancer cell death by Vitamin C (according to Dr. Mark Levine and fan club).

The utilization of vitamin C for aerobic ATP synthesis is perhaps it's most valuable asset, besides building connective tissue (which is a secondary function when megadosing). It is the same mechanism (reducing O2) whereby vitamin C is a powerful antioxidant. Your body only contains less than 0.1 mol of ATP (less than 0.05% of one's body weight) so it has to be constantly synthesized and vitamin C helps do that. When someone is fighting an illness this form of energy is vitally important. It is the presence of this bioavailable electron that gives it it's antioxidant power ... in other words if you're consuming DHA then you're most likely not getting much if any antioxidant effect from it. At best one might call it a pro-oxidant in cancer cells and an inactive antioxidant (and I think that might be giving it too much credit , and involves a number of assumptions I'm a little uncomfortable with).

If your body needs DHA for any reason, it will create it from the AA already in your system (yes, within 30 minutes an entire RDA amount of AA orally consumed will be converted to DHA). All other DHA not utilized in that way is essentially wasted and are maybe even bad for you (at least observations seem to validate this ... see 3 points below).

In the video he claims that DHA once absorbed into the cell is converted to AA ... now this is true, but as I understand it this takes energy ... just as going from AA to DHA imparts energy to synthesize ATP ... the molecule responsible for energizing all cellular activity. So, again, consuming DHA is kind of like breathing in CO2, imnsho. Not doing you a whole lot of good filling your cells with spent fuel.

The bottom line though, all theories aside (and yes, I do think much of this science is still in the theoretical stages) in practice that DHA supplementation has never demonstrated statistical significant benefit in either the test-tube or the human body model, in any way. Never ever. In fact the general consensus among many of the experts in the field have observed the opposite. Consider the following:

1) Dr. Cathcart, who individually has performed more IVC (intravenous vitamin C) infusions than anyone else ... reportedly over 25,000, claimed that from his observations the benefit from IVC was sharply reduced the more yellow his solution was from oxidation (DHA). In other words, "less DHA" is better treatment. He recommended having as colorless of a solution as possible and gave advice how to keep it colorless (don't completely dissolve it until you use it ... vitamin C will stay reduced much long when it is sitting in the bottom of the beaker being highly concentrated).

2) In 2008 a misrepresented study by the Sloan Kettering Institute run by a Dr. Mark Heaney he claimed from the results that vitamin C does not only kill cancer but may even promote tumor growth. On closer investigation it was discovered that he used blood plasma levels that were not only way too low (they were similar to what one would get from oral vitamin C ... similar to the infamous Mayo clinic studies in the early 80's) ... he also used purely oxidized vitamin C ... or "orange crap" as I like to call it. This orange crap is the DHA acid that this video you refer to discusses.

3) Excessive DHA has been suggested as a potential factor in diabetes (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14829572), and cataracts (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... Patterson2).

There is a reason 90% of the vitamin C in fruit is AA: because bioflavonoids keep it that way. I believe the concentration is much higher when fruit is on the vine. The concentration of DHA only increases as fruit begins to rot. While there are somethings that are more healthy when they ferment, it is usually a biological process causing the fermentation ... the rotting of fruit is generally a non-biological process of oxidation, which is pretty much always not such a good thing as far as enhancing nutrition.

There is of course the Ester-C crowd that claims that their vitamin C is superior because it has something like what ... 30% DHA in it? After some 40+ years of them claiming this there still has yet to be a single peer reviewed study that validates any claim that their vitamin C provides any more benefit than regular vitamin C. The data just isn't there. It does however have the remarkable effect of making it a little easier to walk though, as it will likely drain your pocket from any loose change that may have otherwise been weighing you down.

It may be that a small portion of DHA vitamin C might be beneficial, but as I said ... your body will convert all your AA into DHA in 30 minutes (in normal doses ... megadosing can lengthen this), or in other words by taking pure AA you're getting all the DHA relatively quickly that you need and it will make it into your cells anyway. Hopefully though you're taking enough other nutrients to regenerate AA from the intracellular DHA, and most of that DHA will be removed by the kidneys very efficiently (again, hopefully).

In the end the proof is in the pudding, and those who've done the observations say: DHA doesn't seem to help anything.

-----------
Important Note:
I also would like some information how he did his calculations. You can do a psuedo test for vitamin C absorption by doing a simple finger stick blood glucose test before and after. I suspect this is the method he is using. The reason this test works is because vitamin C also shows up on this test. It is not very accurate, but accurate enough to safely say his results are significant and remarkable. Again, I don't think it means anything other than his body is suddenly accumulating a whole lot of something that won't do him any good. IMHO the AA:DHA ratio is critical and this test does not provide that ratio information, but I'm certain practically none of that DHA is being converted to AA in his cells, and in fact may be doing him harm.

I do think however his methods are to be applauded, and I'm impressed with it compared to all the other psuedo-scientific revelations you normally get on youtube. These blood glucose readings should provide additional and very important insight into Vitamin C pharmacokinetics. He is to be commended on his methods, although I do not agree with rushing to any treatment recommendation based on his theory.
The ascorbist-greeting:
"Score big, eh eh?", "Is yea.", "Excelente'."

(igpay-atinlay of: "Ascorbic?","Yes.","Excellent.")
Short-form: "Score?", "Score." [knuckle bump]

davea0511
Enthusiast
Enthusiast
Posts: 120
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:49 am
Location: Boise, Idaho
Contact:

Re: Dehydroascorbic = MUCH higher blood levels of VitC ?

Post Number:#3  Post by davea0511 » Sat Sep 20, 2014 7:06 pm

I should also add ... his findings are suspect when he also says that DHA A is only available from him and is difficult to manufacture. Again, nothing could be farther froth the truth. Dump out any bottle of vitamin C onto a plate ... this will work faster if you use a brand that has no bioflavonoids (like rose hips, etc). Then leave it uncovered in the sun for a few days. When it turns yellow-ish orange it will be about 50% DHA, 50% AA.

This is the reason why they put your vitamin C in dark bottles: to keep it as AA as much as possible because, well ... relatively speaking DHA just isn't anywhere as good for you, if good at all.
The ascorbist-greeting:
"Score big, eh eh?", "Is yea.", "Excelente'."

(igpay-atinlay of: "Ascorbic?","Yes.","Excellent.")
Short-form: "Score?", "Score." [knuckle bump]

ofonorow
Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard
Posts: 12824
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:16 pm
Location: Lisle, IL
Contact:

Re: Dehydroascorbic = MUCH higher blood levels of VitC ?

Post Number:#4  Post by ofonorow » Sun Sep 21, 2014 6:55 am

Excellent davea0511. We are interested in your background.

If DHA is converted to AA inside the cell, wouldn't the GSH (that must be required) be converted to oxidized GSH?

Either you (or another poster) had also theorized that DHA has the anti-viral power we often associate with high dosage vitamin C intake.
Owen R. Fonorow, Follow #OWENRFONOROW at twitter

davea0511
Enthusiast
Enthusiast
Posts: 120
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:49 am
Location: Boise, Idaho
Contact:

Re: Dehydroascorbic = MUCH higher blood levels of VitC ?

Post Number:#5  Post by davea0511 » Mon Sep 22, 2014 1:28 pm

Yes, the oxidation of GSH to GSSG does covert DHA back to AA, but not very efficiently where glucose is present in the cell (which is just about every cell). Glucose drives the reduction of GSSG to GSH, so you get one or the other, but not both. Taking vitamin C and GSH (and glucose from a normal diet) will not setup GSH to keep reducing DHA back to AA indefinitely, unless there was a way to force the body to indefinitely periodically cycle glucose to the cells from zero to normal levels every 30 minutes. You just have to keep taking fresh vitamin C if you want a constant supply of AA.

Yes, DHA is much more anti-viral than AA for some virus strains, but I would repeat that all normal levels of AA are automatically converted to DHA in the body in 30 minutes according to Steve Hickey's research. By taking AA you are donating an electron at the cellular level for added redox potential, then the resulting DHA kills off viruses. Then the increased redox potential (from AA to DHA) should also ultimately assist GSH in the effort to reduce DHA back to AA. Redox is redox no matter where it comes from. Why would someone deprive themselves of that process by taking DHA instead of AA?

Really, I see no need whatsoever to take DHA. Our bodies will generate all the DHA from the AA we take, and get a boost of redox potential in the process.
The ascorbist-greeting:
"Score big, eh eh?", "Is yea.", "Excelente'."

(igpay-atinlay of: "Ascorbic?","Yes.","Excellent.")
Short-form: "Score?", "Score." [knuckle bump]

OxC
Vitamin C Master
Vitamin C Master
Posts: 321
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:25 pm
Contact:

Re: Dehydroascorbic = MUCH higher blood levels of VitC ?

Post Number:#6  Post by OxC » Tue Sep 23, 2014 3:06 pm

davea0511 wrote:... he also used purely oxidized vitamin C ... or "orange crap" as I like to call it. This orange crap is the DHA acid that this video you refer to discusses.
I should also add ... his findings are suspect when he also says that DHA A is only available from him and is difficult to manufacture. Again, nothing could be farther froth the truth. Dump out any bottle of vitamin C onto a plate ... this will work faster if you use a brand that has no bioflavonoids (like rose hips, etc). Then leave it uncovered in the sun for a few days. When it turns yellow-ish orange it will be about 50% DHA, 50% AA.

I wonder where in the world davea0511 got the idea that dehydroascorbic acid is yellow or orange? (And the method of producing DHAA he proposes is absolute malarkey).

davea0511 wrote:I also would like some information how he did his calculations. You can do a psuedo test for vitamin C absorption by doing a simple finger stick blood glucose test before and after. I suspect this is the method he is using.

If davea0511 had paid attention to the video, he would know that the lab reports are posted for the whole world to see, and that the analyses were performed by LabCorp.

ofonorow wrote:Excellent davea0511. We are interested in your background.

Yeah...me too.
Douglas Q. Kitt, founder of ReCverin LLC, sellers of stabilized dehydroascorbic acid solutions.

ofonorow
Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard
Posts: 12824
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:16 pm
Location: Lisle, IL
Contact:

Re: Dehydroascorbic = MUCH higher blood levels of VitC ?

Post Number:#7  Post by ofonorow » Wed Sep 24, 2014 8:35 am

I wonder where in the world davea0511 got the idea that dehydroascorbic acid is yellow or orange? (And the method of producing DHAA he proposes is absolute malarkey).


From Dr. Cathcart (on the IV admin video). The IV solutions of sodium ascorbate turn yellow after mixing, and Dr. C speculated that the color change was due to the breakdown into DHA.

Also, are you talking about the video being malarkey? I don't understand and would appreciate specifics.
Owen R. Fonorow, Follow #OWENRFONOROW at twitter

OxC
Vitamin C Master
Vitamin C Master
Posts: 321
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:25 pm
Contact:

Re: Dehydroascorbic = MUCH higher blood levels of VitC ?

Post Number:#8  Post by OxC » Wed Sep 24, 2014 6:19 pm

ofonorow wrote:From Dr. Cathcart (on the IV admin video). The IV solutions of sodium ascorbate turn yellow after mixing, and Dr. C speculated that the color change was due to the breakdown into DHA.

Pure DHAA in solution is colorless, and the pure crystalline, dimer form is white. This has been known for years; see for example this publication from 1951:
Pecherer B. (Contribution No. 232 from the research laboratories of Hoffman-LaRoche, Inc.) The Preparation of Dehydro-L-ascorbic Acid and its Methanol Complex. Some Reactions of Dehydro-L-ascorbic Acid. J. Am. Chem. Soc. 73, 3827–3830 (1951) http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ja01152a080

Degradation of AA is a long cascade of chemical reactions that ultimately results in accumulation of tens or even hundreds of different chemical species. The yellowing (or “browning” as it is also referred to in the literature) of ascorbic acid solutions is a complex process involving these degradation products.

Both AA and DHAA are much more stable in acidic solutions; thus sodium ascorbate solutions, which are essentially neutral, demonstrate accelerated degradation of vitamin C, and turn yellow much faster than solutions of pure ascorbic acid which are acidic.

We have been selling solutions containing high concentrations of DHAA for some years now, to many happy, satisfied, and regularly-returning customers; these solutions are crystal clear and colorless, but eventually turn yellow when stored at room temperature. These solutions remain stable (clear, colorless, and with no measurable loss of AA or DHAA) literally for years when stored at freezer temperatures, and even cool temperatures greatly enhance their stability.

ofonorow wrote:Also, are you talking about the video being malarkey? I don't understand and would appreciate specifics.

Setting AA powder in the sun for a few days will result in very minimal oxidation or degradation. If the surface of the pile develops a yellow color, this “orange crap” as davea0511 chooses to elegantly call it, is not DHAA, but is instead more advanced degradation products. DHAA will not accumulate under these conditions due to its greater instability. In other words, it degrades as fast as it is formed. How do I know all of this? I have conducted similar experiments, attempting to create DHAA from crystalline AA using intense UV, oxygen, and even ozone. (Yes, I admit, there was a time in my life when I was so naïve as to believe such processes might work. But I actually performed the experiments before I embarrassed myself by posting my naïve hypotheses all over the internet as if they were fact).

ofonorow wrote:If DHA is converted to AA inside the cell, wouldn't the GSH (that must be required) be converted to oxidized GSH?

Intracellular reduction of DHAA does not necessarily require glutathione. Direct reduction by glutathione is one of several known reducing mechanisms for DHAA in human cells (see the references below). Nevertheless, GSH is unquestionably a major player. But recycling of DHAA to AA is an extremely efficient and clearly very important process in humans as well as in species that can make their own vitamin C; and there is evidence that it has evolved to be an even more efficient process in species that don’t. It appears to explain how humans can exist with such minimal dietary intakes of vitamin C.

If davea0511 is correct that “within 30 minutes an entire RDA amount of AA orally consumed will be converted to DHA,” (I have no idea of the source or truth of this statement, but it is possible), then one can understand how essential this recycling is. The normal human body contains only about 1500 mg total. If normal human metabolism converts, say, 200 mg of AA per hour to DHAA, then in 7.5 hours most humans would be totally devoid of AA if the DHAA was not captured and reduced back to AA. Yet in almost all tissues (skin excepted), and at any moment, almost all of the vitamin C is in the reduced form AA, even in sick persons under extreme oxidative stress. And a typical human on a normal diet, if vitamin C is suddenly and completely excluded from their diet, will not develop signs of scurvy for about 60 days. Thus if davea0511’s contention is correct, this leads to the conclusion that every molecule of vitamin C must be re-used in the recycling process hundreds or thousands of times before it is finally lost by hydrolysis or other degradation. So maybe davea0511's "facts" about GSH and GSSG, and his contention that, "All other DHA not utilized in that way is essentially wasted," are instead more unsubstantiated hypotheses?


Park JB and Levine M. Purification, cloning and expression of dehydroascorbic acid-reducing activity from human neutrophils: identification as glutaredoxin. Biochem. J. (1996) 315, 931-938. http://www.biochemj.org/bj/315/0931/bj3150931.htm

Linster CL and Van Schaftingen E. Vitamin C: Biosynthesis, recycling and degradation in mammals. FEBS Journal 274 (2007) 1–22. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1742-4658.2006.05607.x/full

Wilson JX. The physiological role of dehydroascorbic acid. FEBS Letters 527 (2002) 5-9. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0014579302031678

And finally, I am sorry that the link to first reference in this message only allows viewing the first page rather than the full text. It is sad but true that much of the world’s most important scientific literature is published in journals that are not open source.
Douglas Q. Kitt, founder of ReCverin LLC, sellers of stabilized dehydroascorbic acid solutions.

tjohnson_nb
Vitamin C Expert
Vitamin C Expert
Posts: 548
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:03 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Dehydroascorbic = MUCH higher blood levels of VitC ?

Post Number:#9  Post by tjohnson_nb » Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:50 am

Very interesting discussion. It seems to me the whole mechanism of recycling AA is somehow related to the fact that we cannot synthesize AA. From an evolutionary point of view it makes alot of sense to evolve elaborate systems to recycle something so important to the organism. From what I have read it seems that uptake of DHAA may be much faster than AA (at least in some cell types) but I wonder if this is part of the recycling strategy of the organism and if one is taking AA regularly throughout the day one can maintain AA levels without using the DHAA transport system? In other words, by increasing AA intake via megadosing we don't need to recycle it much because we have a fresh supply all the time.

PS. from one of the links above.
DHA is ingested in the diet and also formed from oxidative reactions in cells and extracellular fluid. However, vitamin C oxidation is readily reversed by mechanisms that rapidly transport DHA into metabolically competent cells and reduce it there to AA. The resulting AA can be utilized in the same cells or else released to the extracellular fluid. DHA recycling mechanisms may decrease the amount of AA that humans need to ingest. Pathological conditions that inhibit DHA recycling may decrease AA concentrations and thereby impair AA-dependent enzymatic and antioxidant activities.
Last edited by tjohnson_nb on Thu Sep 25, 2014 8:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
'Always' and 'never' are 2 words you should always remember never to use.

ofonorow
Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard
Posts: 12824
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:16 pm
Location: Lisle, IL
Contact:

Re: Dehydroascorbic = MUCH higher blood levels of VitC ?

Post Number:#10  Post by ofonorow » Thu Sep 25, 2014 8:14 am

I agree, very interesting. OxC, if we rely on your experience, and oxidized AA is not the cause of the yellow color, then why do you think that some sodium ascorbate powders immediately turn yellow in solution? (And some do not.)

We have been selling solutions containing high concentrations of DHAA for some years now, to many happy, satisfied, and regularly-returning customers; these solutions are crystal clear and colorless, but eventually turn yellow when stored at room temperature. These solutions remain stable (clear, colorless, and with no measurable loss of AA or DHAA) literally for years when stored at freezer temperatures, and even cool temperatures greatly enhance their stability.


I am now very curious. For what application would you be selling DHAA? What is it used for??
Owen R. Fonorow, Follow #OWENRFONOROW at twitter

OxC
Vitamin C Master
Vitamin C Master
Posts: 321
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:25 pm
Contact:

Re: Dehydroascorbic = MUCH higher blood levels of VitC ?

Post Number:#11  Post by OxC » Thu Sep 25, 2014 9:15 am

ofonorow wrote:I agree, very interesting. OxC, if we rely on your experience, and oxidized AA is not the cause of the yellow color, then why do you think that some sodium ascorbate powders immediately turn yellow in solution? (And some do not.)

I haven't experienced this phenomenon, so I would only be hypothesizing as to its explanation. But I would guess that yellow byproducts already exist in powders that create yellow solutions immediately. And that the immediate precursors of yellow byproducts already exist in powders that form clear solutions that turn yellow very rapidly. I assume the presence of these byproducts or precursors would be related to the age and storage conditions of the powder. Edited to add this comment: If we're talking about sodium ascorbate powder distributed in vials for reconstitution and then IV infusion, then I assume these vials are sterilized. Differences in sterilizing techniques might affect the rate at which the solution prepared by reconstituting the vial turns yellow, as might the reconstituting water itself.
ofonorow wrote:I am now very curious. For what application would you be selling DHAA? What is it used for??

ReCverin 50/50 is marketed for skin care as a topically applied solution and as a dietary supplement. Orally, it is useful as a mouthrinse and gargle, to specifically target the tissues of the mouth and throat.
Douglas Q. Kitt, founder of ReCverin LLC, sellers of stabilized dehydroascorbic acid solutions.

rmb60
Enthusiast
Enthusiast
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 6:41 pm
Location: Adelaide AUSTRALIA
Contact:

Re: Dehydroascorbic = MUCH higher blood levels of VitC ?

Post Number:#12  Post by rmb60 » Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:57 am

Thanks to all who responded, what interested me was his significantly higher blood levels of AA using oral DHA compared to oral AA, of course we cant be 100% sure what he consumed prior to his blood draw, but the oral DHA results are fantastic

ofonorow
Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard
Posts: 12824
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:16 pm
Location: Lisle, IL
Contact:

Re: Dehydroascorbic = MUCH higher blood levels of VitC ?

Post Number:#13  Post by ofonorow » Fri Sep 26, 2014 8:06 am

But I would guess that yellow byproducts already exist in powders that create yellow solutions immediately. And that the immediate precursors of yellow byproducts already exist in powders that form clear solutions that turn yellow very rapidly. I assume the presence of these byproducts or precursors would be related to the age and storage conditions of the powder. Edited to add this comment:


You can experience the yellow color by mixing sodium ascorbate in water in a clear glass. In our case, we use DSM Quali-C where the only "by product" is sodium. Because of the difference in potency (sodium ascorbate mixed IVs per Cathcart versus the standard BioNich buffered ascorbic acid) our alt. doc theorizes that there is a rapid breakdown of ascorbate into various byproducts. However, he cannot afford the expense of laboratory testing to find out. (The sodium ascorbate IVs are much more powerful.)

Sherry Lewin in her 1976 book Vitamin C: Its Biology and Medical Potential, wrote that DHA is more permeable through cell membranes than AA, (apparently can enter cells without a transporter?) but it still escapes me how an oxidant, or oxidized form of vitamin C can get recharged (reduced) without depleting another antioxidant? There are sometimes great value to oxidants, at least for short term effects.

Owen R. Fonorow, Follow #OWENRFONOROW at twitter

OxC
Vitamin C Master
Vitamin C Master
Posts: 321
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:25 pm
Contact:

Re: Dehydroascorbic = MUCH higher blood levels of VitC ?

Post Number:#14  Post by OxC » Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:03 pm

ofonorow wrote:Sherry Lewin in her 1976 book Vitamin C: Its Biology and Medical Potential, wrote that DHA is more permeable through cell membranes than AA, (apparently can enter cells without a transporter?)...

I don't like to put words in anyone's mouth, but I suspect Lewin meant that DHAA is more "permeable" through cell membranes because it is transported by different transporters (GLUTs) than AA (which uses SVCTs). It has been shown time and again that the rate of transport of DHAA into almost all types of mammalian cells is much faster, and in fact that the amount of AA that accumulates inside the cell is much higher. If Lewin used the word "permeable," perhaps it was just an unfortunate choice of terms to describe the passage of DHAA through the cell membrane; that term might easily be interpreted as specifically differentiating being diffusion and transport, even if it was not intended in that way. To the best of my knowledge, neither AA nor DHAA can enter a cell (at least in any meaningful amount) by simple diffusion across the cell membrane.
ofonorow wrote:but it still escapes me how an...oxidized form of vitamin C can get recharged (reduced) without depleting another antioxidant?

As pointed out above, sometimes our perception of a process is colored by the terms we use to describe it. DHAA can't be reduced without "utilizing" another molecule, such as reduced glutathione or NADH, to gain reducing equivalents. But the term "utilizing" carries a somewhat different connotation than the term "depleting." One just describes a process, whereas the other implies some kind of negative or undesirable consequence. As has been discussed in this thread, the process of recycling DHAA to AA is a normal, very active, and very efficient one. The processes by which oxidized glutathione is restored to its reduced form, and by which NAD is restored to its reduced form (NADH), are likewise normal, very active, and efficient (see, for example, the reference describing the citric acid cycle that davea0511 provided). To say that these antioxidants are "depleted" by vitamin C recycling is not, in my mind, the best choice of words.
Douglas Q. Kitt, founder of ReCverin LLC, sellers of stabilized dehydroascorbic acid solutions.

Johnwen
Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard
Posts: 2062
Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:27 pm
Contact:

Re: Dehydroascorbic = MUCH higher blood levels of VitC ?

Post Number:#15  Post by Johnwen » Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:48 pm

My head is kind of spinning after reading all this.
DHA is the oxidized form of ascorbic acid.
Will it kill virus’s? Yes, Anaerobic varied types!
Will AA kill virus’s? Yes, Aerobic varied types!
Will it do a better Job then AA? No they both rely on the same transport mechanisms to get to the cells.
These are some of the questions that came to mind upon reading all this.

One that stood out to me was that in order to get DHA you need L-Ascorbic acid. The other form of V-C is D-erythroascorbic acid (D-ascorbic acid) will not turn yellow when oxidized and the reason it’s used as preservative in foods. The other thing with D-Ascorbic is it will not convert in the body to AA. However it is a excellent anti-oxidant but once it absorbs it’s oxygen molecules out the door it goes. If you want to reduce it! you need a yeast!
If you have yeasts in your body at the quantity needed to reverse it You got bigger problems.

However a lot of supplement V-C out there now is a 50-50 mix of L and D forms. It’s about money! The D form costs about 80% less then the L form does.

It maybe also interesting but consuming higher then 1 gram of D-Ascorbic can and will set off some GI problems which could give one the idea their hitting Bowel Tolerance. When in fact their getting a plain old stomach reaction to an irritant. Kind of Like “I hit Bt at 4 grams I must be healthy!!”
No! you need to get REAL L-ASCORBIC ACID!

So with this in mind Yes! the DHA maybe a better option because it takes L-Ascorbic to produce it. Your body is just going to convert it back to AA an reuse it. It’s probably the reason their showing better everything when using it. The downside is your missing the first step in it’s anti-oxidant actions.
Or just buy a known pure and certified form of L-Ascorbic.

Here is a little test I did. I bought a 8oz jar of Ascorbic Acid put tissue on it and set it off to the side where it wouldn’t be disturbed. At the end of 3 days it was white as snow! At 6 days had some yellowing and at 10 days about half of it was yellow at 14 days No change! I then contacted the manufacture and demanded a CA (Certificate of Analysis) and as I suspected it was a 50-50 mix. Did they lie to me when I bought it? NO! it was what it said it was “ASCORBIC ACID!” 50% L and 50% D. So yes it’s buyer beware out there.

To keep things right on the original topic here. I would suggest reading this report on how L-ascorbic functions in the human body. It’s a good educational piece kind of long but well worth in understanding L-ascorbic journey thru the body.

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/137/10/2171.long
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is
research!


Return to “Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest