What is your opinion on....

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JoeC
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What is your opinion on....

Post Number:#1  Post by JoeC » Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:52 am

Taking 3g of AA every waking hour (about 15 hours a day) and then 5g mixed in water for during the night.
Comes out to about 50g a day.

I had reached BT once, a few days ago, but can't remember exactly how much I had taken - it was nowhere near 50g though.

Assuming I can handle the BT, the 50g would either be used or not right?
And lets assume I don't reach BT on 50g, that's pretty much proof that the 50g is definitely being used?

thanks, joe

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Re: What is your opinion on....

Post Number:#2  Post by skwoodwiva » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:41 am

I did a similar thing, having 6 amalgams left I thought I might tolerate a lot more than what the usual BT calibration result of 35 to 40 gr.

So I started increasing my normal dose of 25 split 6 6o 8 times a day. I added 5 gr to every 3 rd dose or so. I reached 75 gr a day I about a week (True BT) and backed off to
~70
I kept this up for about 2 mo, then decided to go full organic with much greens!!

I began hitting BT often and in a month I am back at less VC than where I started- 20 gr can now cause BT.

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Re: What is your opinion on....

Post Number:#3  Post by OxC » Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:28 pm

JoeC wrote:lets assume I don't reach BT on 50g, that's pretty much proof that the 50g is definitely being used?

Many people have a mistaken notion about "bowel tolerance" and absorption of AA. They think that if you eat a large dose of AA without getting diarrhea, that means you must have absorbed all of the AA into your bloodstream. That isn't true.

AA in your colon acts as an "osmotic agent," which essentially means that it draws water into the colon. If there is enough AA in your colon, then it can draw in enough water to result in an episode of diarrhea...but the key word here is "enough." If there isn't enough AA, then it doesn't cause diarrhea. But that can still be quite a lot of AA in your colon.

Consider a similar situation. Polyethylene glycol is a chemical that the body cannot absorb. It is used as a laxative (e.g. Miralax). It acts as an osmotic agent, just like AA. The recommended dose for an adult is 17 g/day as a "stool softener," but some clinical trials suggest doses closer to 60 g/day are more optimal for constipation (and it does not regularly produce diarrhea at these doses, at least in constipated people). In order to assure diarrhea in most people, such as when this product is used for a colonoscopy prep, a whopping 238 g dose is used. You can see that many people can tolerate a pretty large dose of an osmotic agent in the colon without experiencing diarrhea.

If you eat a single large dose of AA, say 10 grams, studies show that you likely absorb, at most, only 1 or 2 grams into your bloodstream. The other 8 or 9 grams passes through your small intestine and into your colon. For some people, that is enough, and they experience diarrhea. For others, that is not enough to cause diarrhea. But "lack of diarrhea" doesn't mean "complete absorption into the blood," and it doesn't mean you don't have a large amount of AA in your colon.
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Re: What is your opinion on....

Post Number:#4  Post by zarfas » Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:59 pm

OxC wrote:Many people have a mistaken notion about "bowel tolerance" and absorption of AA. They think that if you eat a large dose of AA without getting diarrhea, that means you must have absorbed all of the AA into your bloodstream. That isn't true.



what about lyposheric vitamin C? does that stay in the colon or go to the bloood stream?

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Re: What is your opinion on....

Post Number:#5  Post by pamojja » Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:00 pm

OxC wrote:If you eat a single large dose of AA, say 10 grams, studies show that you likely absorb, at most, only 1 or 2 grams into your bloodstream. The other 8 or 9 grams passes through your small intestine and into your colon. For some people, that is enough, and they experience diarrhea. For others, that is not enough to cause diarrhea. But "lack of diarrhea" doesn't mean "complete absorption into the blood," and it doesn't mean you don't have a large amount of AA in your colon.



So all the health benefits I'm experiencing from ingesting maga-doses of ascorbic acid are imagined?

And results from testing actual serum levels faked?



Journal of the New Zealand Medical Association, 23-August-2002, Vol 115 No 1160

Glycohaemoglobin and ascorbic acid

Copplestone et al1 (http://www.nzma.org....al/115-1157/25/) identified misleading glycohaemoglobin (GHb) results due to a haemoglobin variant (Hb D Punjab) and listed a number of other possible causes for such false results (ie, haemolytic anaemia, uraemia, lead poisoning, alcoholism, high-dose salicylates and hereditary persistence of foetal haemoglobin).

We have observed a significant "false" lowering of GHb in animals and humans supplementing ascorbic acid (AA) at multigram levels. Mice receiving ~7.5 mg/d (equivalent to > 10 g/day in a 70 kg human) exhibited no decrease in plasma glucose, but a 23% reduction in GHb.2 In humans, supplementation of AA for several months did not lower fasting plasma glucose.3,4 We studied 139 consecutive consenting non-diabetic patients in an oncology clinic. The patients had been encouraged as part of their treatment to supplement AA. Self-reported daily intake varied from 0 to 20 g/day. The plasma AA levels ranged from 11.4 to 517 µmol/L and correlated well with the reported intake. Regression analysis of their GHb and plasma AA values showed a statistically significant inverse association (eg, each 30 µmol/L increase in plasma AA concentration resulted in a decrease of 0.1 in GHb).

A 1 g oral dose of AA can raise plasma AA to 130 µmol/L within an hour and such doses at intervals of about two hours throughout the day can maintain ~230 µmol AA/L.5 Similar levels could also be achieved by use of sustained-release AA tablets. This AA concentration would induce an approximate 0.7 depression in GHb. The GHb assay used in our study, affinity chromatography, is not affected by the presence of AA.3 Thus, unlike the case with Hb D Punjab, our results were not caused by analytical method artifact. More likely, the decreased GHb associated with AA supplementation appears related to an in vivo inhibition of glycation by the elevated plasma AA levels, and not a decrease in average plasma glucose.3 If this is true, the effect has implications not only for interpretation of GHb but also for human ageing, in which glycation of proteins plays a prominent role in age-related degenerative changes.

A misleading GHb lowering of the magnitude we observed can be clinically significant. Current recommendations for diabetics suggest that GHb be maintained at 7, a level that is associated with acceptable control and decreased risk of complications; when GHb exceeds 8, re-evaluation of treatment is necessary.6 Moreover, relatively small increases in average blood sugar (ie, GHb) can accompany adverse reproductive effects. A difference in mean maternal GHb of 0.8 was found for women giving birth to infants without or with congenital malformations.7 In either of these circumstances, an underestimation of GHb could obscure the need for more aggressive intervention.

Vitamin usage is common in New Zealand and after multivitamins, AA is the most often consumed supplement.8 Moreover, diabetics are encouraged to supplement antioxidants, including AA. Thus, it seems prudent for primary care health providers to inquire regarding the AA intake of patients, especially diabetics, when using GHb for diagnosis or treatment monitoring.

Cheryl A Krone
Senior Research Scientist
John TA Ely
Director
Applied Research Institute
PO Box 1925
Palmerston North

References:

Copplestone S, Mackay R, Brennan S. Normal glycated haemoglobin in a patient with poorly controlled diabetes mellitus and haemoglobin D Punjab: implications for assessment of control. NZ Med J 2002;115(1157). URL: http://www.nzma.org....al/115-1157/25/
Krone CA, Ely JTA. Vitamin C and glycohemoglobin revisited. Clin Chem 2001;47(1):148.
Davie SJ, Gould BJ, Yudkin JS. Effect of vitamin C on glycosylation of proteins. Diabetes 1992;41(2):167–73.
Paolisso G, Balbi V, Bolpe C, et al. Metabolic benefits deriving from chronic vitamin C supplementation in aged non-insulin dependent diabetics. J Am Coll Nutr 1995; 14(4):387–392.
Lewin S. Vitamin C: Its Molecular Biology and Medical Potential. New York: Academic Press; 1976.
Kenealey T, Braatvedt G, Scragg R. Screening for type 2 diabetes in non-pregnant adults in New Zealand: practice recommendations. NZ Med J 2002;115(1152):194–6.
Rosenn B, Miodovnik M, Dignan PS, et al. Minor congenital malformation in infants of insulin-dependent diabetic women: association with poor glycemic control. Obstet Gynecol 1990;76:745–9.
Allen T, Thomson WM, Emmerton LM, Poulton R. Nutritional supplement use among 26-year-olds. N Z Med J 2000;113(1113):274–7.



Definitely NOT!

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Re: What is your opinion on....

Post Number:#6  Post by OxC » Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:17 pm

pamojja wrote:Self-reported daily intake varied from 0 to 20 g/day. The plasma AA levels ranged from 11.4 to 517 µmol/L and correlated well with the reported intake....A 1 g oral dose of AA can raise plasma AA to 130 µmol/L within an hour and such doses at intervals of about two hours throughout the day can maintain ~230 µmol AA/L.

With your credentials, you certainly know that 20 g infused intravenously will result in plasma levels in the range of 30 - 50 times higher than the 517 uM levels reported here by oral intake. So what is your point? I never said that consuming higher oral doses doesn't result in higher plasma values. I never said that those higher plasma values are not beneficial. I only pointed out that the "correlation" of oral doses with plasma values is far from linear (i.e. that the larger the dose above about 250 - 500 mg, the smaller the percentage that is absorbed). And therefore it is plainly obvious that large percentages of megadoses wind up in the colon. If you are trying to fool more naive people into believing they absorb every gram they eat, you should be ashamed. If you are trying to bury my comment with your lengthy diatribe, you should be more ashamed.
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Re: What is your opinion on....

Post Number:#7  Post by zarfas » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:02 pm

OxC wrote: I only pointed out that the "correlation" of oral doses with plasma values is far from linear (i.e. that the larger the dose above about 250 - 500 mg, the smaller the percentage that is absorbed). And therefore it is plainly obvious that large percentages of megadoses wind up in the colon..

so does lypo spheric vit C get a higher percentage absorbed? if I take 1 gram of that is the 100% of it absorbed?
I dont have access to IV-vit C, so how do I reach higher vit C levels? (take more vit C, right?) but what is the max I can take before diminishing returns occurs?

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Re: What is your opinion on....

Post Number:#8  Post by pamojja » Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:46 am

OxC wrote:I never said that consuming higher oral doses doesn't result in higher plasma values. I never said that those higher plasma values are not beneficial. I only pointed out that the "correlation" of oral doses with plasma values is far from linear (i.e. that the larger the dose above about 250 - 500 mg, the smaller the percentage that is absorbed).


(bolding by me) Thanks for clarifying that you didn't intended to imply, that higher doses of oral vitamin C would not result in higher plasma levels (levels as high as by mainstream medicine thought to be reached only by IVs). And that there are definite health benefits from mega-dosing.

OxC wrote:With your credentials, you certainly know that 20 g infused intravenously will result in plasma levels in the range of 30 - 50 times higher than the 517 uM levels reported here by oral intake. So what is your point?..

..And therefore it is plainly obvious that large percentages of megadoses wind up in the colon. If you are trying to fool more naive people into believing they absorb every gram they eat, you should be ashamed. If you are trying to bury my comment with your lengthy diatribe, you should be more ashamed.


Why this silly pseudo-appeal to authority? A additional straw-man's argument? And moralizing on account of such poor argumentation?

It's obvious that oral mega-doses do have system-wide health-benefits, not the least in probably preventing colon cancer. That doesn't denies that the more you take the less percentage is absorbed. Increasing benefits are still occurring at higher doses (as long one is able to take).

JoeC wrote:Assuming I can handle the BT, the 50g would either be used or not right?
And lets assume I don't reach BT on 50g, that's pretty much proof that the 50g is definitely being used?


With increasing oral doses a smaller percentage reaches the blood. Possible health benefits are still more likely to increase with higher doses. Which means it definitely is put to good use by your body. Just not as a linear measure by a single lab parameter, as OxC insisted.

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Re: What is your opinion on....

Post Number:#9  Post by pamojja » Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:55 am

zarfas wrote:so does lypo spheric vit C get a higher percentage absorbed? if I take 1 gram of that is the 100% of it absorbed?
I dont have access to IV-vit C, so how do I reach higher vit C levels? (take more vit C, right?) but what is the max I can take before diminishing returns occurs?


From measurements in case studies both reached almost the same serum levels. And it was hypothesized that's because with lipoC more is immediately entering the cells, it would therefore not be measurable at higher levels in serum.

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Re: What is your opinion on....

Post Number:#10  Post by OxC » Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:26 am

pamojja wrote:Why this silly pseudo-appeal to authority? A additional straw-man's argument? And moralizing on account of such poor argumentation?

No, I was just confused by the construction of your message. I thought you were identifying yourself as being this same researcher, and was shocked.
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Re: What is your opinion on....

Post Number:#11  Post by pamojja » Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:41 am

OxC wrote:No, I was just confused by the construction of your message. I thought you were identifying yourself as being this same researcher, and was shocked.


It's just the odd reality that this 1 quoted study (now behind a paywall) is the only one which did the obvious: measure actual serum levels on high dose vitamin C.

All other estimations how high serum levels would be reached by how high oral doses are based on dose escalations studies of up to 2.5g doses only, then extrapolated for all higher doses. Mere guesses.

OxC wrote:.. you certainly know that 20 g infused intravenously will result in plasma levels in the range of 30 - 50 times higher than the 517 uM levels reported here by oral intake. So what is your point?


The point is: X-times higher peak-concentrations by IV are possible by bypassing towel-tolerance and therefore X-times higher doses. Which will last as long as the infusion lasts - very few can afford that luxury of 1-2 hours more than once a week, if at all. While with oral that's steady state of only 20g orally. Affordable by everyone 24/7.

Self-reported daily intake varied from 0 to 20 g/day. The plasma AA levels ranged from 11.4 to 517 µmol/L and correlated well with the reported intake.


2.5x more as 50g per day, or even higher if bowel tolerance allows, has still not been tested. So no one can give no more than educated guesses..

In the final analysis and with chronic disease only the actual health benefits count. And they are obvious - which can't be denied by mere guesses about certain maybe associated serum levels.


OxC wrote:If you eat a single large dose of AA, say 10 grams, studies show that you likely absorb, at most, only 1 or 2 grams into your bloodstream. The other 8 or 9 grams passes through your small intestine and into your colon.


With emphasis, the studies you refer to measured only up to 2.5 gram, and than guessed about higher intake. But the only study which did not guess but actually measured shows they got their extrapolations wrong.

Beside that, even a larger portion of all foods I eat ends up where? - Because it always ends up in the toilet am I malnourished? And where does every disease in the body starts according to some?..

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Re: What is your opinion on....

Post Number:#12  Post by OxC » Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:56 pm

pamojja wrote:With emphasis, the studies you refer to measured only up to 2.5 gram, and than guessed about higher intake. But the only study which did not guess but actually measured shows they got their extrapolations wrong.

As you've pointed out, the details of the plasma measurements in this one study are unavailable to me (at least without significant cost) because of the paywall. If you have a copy, I'd be interested in reading it.
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Re: What is your opinion on....

Post Number:#13  Post by pamojja » Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:10 am

Sorry, the pasted copy was all which was up online a few years ago at that url: http://journal.nzma.org.nz/journal/115-1160/156/

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Re: What is your opinion on....

Post Number:#14  Post by OxC » Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:43 pm

I am posting the following links to what is available on-line regarding research of Hornig et al in 1980 and 1981.These include absorption data in humans taking doses of 5 and 10 grams daily. Not to engage in debate over the meaning of these studies, but only to offer additional reference material pertinent to this thread that might be of interest to those attempting to draw their own conclusions.
Absorption of large, single, oral intakes of ascorbic acid
Urinary oxalate excretion after large intakes of ascorbic acid in man
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Re: What is your opinion on....

Post Number:#15  Post by ofonorow » Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:52 am

OxC wrote:If you eat a single large dose of AA, say 10 grams, studies show that you likely absorb, at most, only 1 or 2 grams into your bloodstream. The other 8 or 9 grams passes through your small intestine and into your colon. For some people, that is enough, and they experience diarrhea. For others, that is not enough to cause diarrhea. But "lack of diarrhea" doesn't mean "complete absorption into the blood," and it doesn't mean you don't have a large amount of AA in your colon.



It would be interesting to see the full text of https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7429760, HOWEVER "1 to 2 g of 10 grams" is not what the abstract seems to be saying. It measured ascorbic acid in the urine, and at a higher dose, a smaller percentage was excreted?


During the whole experiment the ascorbic acid concentrations in plasma and in urine were determined. The urinary excretion of unmetabolized unlabelled ascorbic acid per day was taken as index for the absorption of ascorbic acid. It decreased from 75% (1 g), 44.0% (2 g), 39%, (3g), 28% (4 g) to 20% (5 g) of the ingested ascorbic acid.



Dose -- Excreted -- Retained
1 g -- 750 mg -- 250 mg
2 g -- 880 mg -- 1,120 mg
3 g -- 1,170 mg -- 1,830 mg
4 g -- 1,112 mg -- 2,880 mg
5 g -- 1000 mg -- 4 grams

So for 5 grams, 1 g excreted in the urine leaving 4 grams, where? Tissues?
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