Lone Atrial Fibrillation and Vit C Dosage - experiences

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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Lone Atrial Fibrillation and Vit C Dosage - experiences

Post Number:#1  Post by ChristianW » Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:31 pm

Hi all, this is my first post :D I'm really blessed to have found this forum and to hear the experiences of others who are taking large doses of Vitamin C daily.

Here is my question: If anyone suffering from AF on this forum (or anyone you know) has had good results with using Vitamin C, what amount of Vitamin C did you use? How significant was the effect of the Vit C on AF recurrence? Does anyone know what dosage of Vit C was used in the studies quoted in this thread which showed good success rates? --- I read all the abstracts, but none mention the dosages or means of administration (oral/IV). The original articles should contain dosing, but cost upwards of US$30 a piece.

Most of the studies deal with post-operative AF which is quite different from Lone Atrial Fibrillation, which occurs in an otherwise healthy heart. Nevertheless one study "Oral vitamin C administration reduces early recurrence rates after electrical cardioversion of persistent atrial fibrillation and attenuates associated inflammation" caught my interest, as it comes closest to my own experience having undergone multiple electrical (shock) cardioversions myself. The results show that 8 times as many patients had AF recur in the control group as compared to the group taking Vitamin C. This is quite remarkable!


Briefly about my background and current progress: I'm in my forties, come from Germany, live in the Philippines and have had LAF recurrent for 16 years and sometimes persistent for up to a month. Most of my severe episodes of AF are triggered by frequent virus infections. I've taken Vitamin C 3000+ mg/day since 2007. Increased that to about 9000+ mg/day in 2009. Recently I have been taking oral Vit C bowel tolerance levels of about 20000 mg/day when I am well, and up to 50000 mg per day when attacked by viral infections. This has helped to reduce my asthma medications to less than half the previous dose and has almost eliminated allergic rhinitis. It has reduced recurrence of arrhythmia to some degree. My children are taking between 6000 mg and 10000 mg Vit C daily (about 1g/year of age).

My current daily supplementation (taken for at least 2 years): Magnesium (citrate) 200-600 mg, Taurine 2000+ mg, Lysine 2000+ mg, Vit D3 5000 mg, Vit E 400-800 IU, Zn (chelated) 30+ mg, Selenium 100+ mcg, B-complex 75mg/mcg, Iodine 150 - 1000 mcg. Drugs for AF prevention: Flecainide anti-arrhythmic, a Beta-Blocker and a Calcium Channel Blocker

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Re: Lone Atrial Fibrillation and Vit C Dosage - experiences

Post Number:#2  Post by bbtri » Fri Oct 08, 2010 2:59 am

You may want to add some fish oil to your supplement routine. It's been shown to reduce arrhythmias.

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Re: Lone Atrial Fibrillation and Vit C Dosage - experiences

Post Number:#3  Post by Lemonaid » Fri Oct 08, 2010 5:58 am

I would look into a high quality multi-vitamin/mineral/nutrient and then adjust your individual supplementations accordingly.

I second bbtri's fish oil recommendation for arrhythmias. Two grams of Omega 3 fatty acids (EPA+DHA) per day may be a good start.

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Re: Lone Atrial Fibrillation and Vit C Dosage - experiences

Post Number:#4  Post by Johnwen » Fri Oct 08, 2010 2:45 pm

Whats the name of your CCB, is it generic, how long have you been taking this?
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Re: Lone Atrial Fibrillation and Vit C Dosage - experiences

Post Number:#5  Post by ChristianW » Sat Oct 09, 2010 5:04 am

Thank you for your comments...
@bbtri and @Lemonaid: I didn't list the multi-vitamin, that I use - its Solgar-VM75 (ingredients here) I agree about the fish oils (Omega 3 fatty acids EPA & DHA) and have tried them previously. We eat quite a bit of fish here and theoretically Omega 3 should help, especially due to its potent anti-inflammatory effects. I've previously taken Omega 3 fish oil supplements for about a year at 1800 mg EPA/DHA content, but have not seen results comparable to high dose Vitamin C. Maybe much higher doses of EPA/DHA would be needed?

@Johnwen: The calcium channel blocker is low-dose Isoptin SR (Verapamil 90 mg/day); it together with the low-dose beta blocker (Nebivolol 2.5 mg/day) reduces the incidence of PACs which can trigger AF. The class 1c antiarrhythmic drug (Tambocor/Flecainide) is at a medium dose of 150 mg/day, but I've taken up to 400 mg/day. At higher dosages the combination of the above have significant side effects reducing quality of life, thus I try to limit dosages to a level that prevents AF episodes.

Now I would like to ask again: Does anyone here know someone who has experience in using high dose Vitamin C for reducing AF recurrence?

Doctor Cathcart and others use up to 200+ g / day of Vit C by IV or orally for other serious diseases. The studies using Vitamin C for AF patients presumably used relatively small doses (< 2000 mg/day ??) typical of the great majority of Vitamin C research.

Would larger doses of say 50 g to 150g / day have the effect of promoting healing of the fibrotic atrial tissues and reversing the electrical remodeling in the heart, thereby reversing the causes of AF? Has anybody actually ever tried that for AF? If Vitamin C can reverse atherosclerosis (as has been proven), could it not also reverse AF?

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Re: Lone Atrial Fibrillation and Vit C Dosage - experiences

Post Number:#6  Post by Johnwen » Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:24 pm

I appreciate your question however I have only seen people who have reduced their incidences of AF by using High Dose V-C. When Owen returns with us he could probably give you a better answer to your question.
I noticed your your taking Iodine, do you have a problem with your thyroid?
People who have hyperthyroidism are at greater risk of AF.
Since your taking this supplement have you had a TSH or T4 test run recently!
A lot of times a Hyperthyroid dosen't give many symptoms but sometimes the symptoms are severe Like AF.
Stick with the VC it can only help! It also reduces the inflamation of the heart caused by AF So there is a benefit!
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Re: Lone Atrial Fibrillation and Vit C Dosage - experiences

Post Number:#7  Post by ChristianW » Sat Oct 09, 2010 8:45 pm

Johnwen wrote:I appreciate your question however I have only seen people who have reduced their incidences of AF by using High Dose V-C.

Great Johnwen, reducing the incidences of AF is already a successful outcome, as the natural progression of the disease is to get more frequent episodes as time goes by. Do you have any details on the treatment protocols? How much Vitamin C (oral, IV or Lypo) was used?

On the afib forum most alternative treatment protocols only include about 2000 mg/day of Vitamin C, which would not be enough to make a significant impact on fibrotic, inflamed tissues of the heart. The people there report good results with chelated Magnesium, Taurine and increased Potassium, which I have incorporated into my supplement protocol and diet.

Johnwen wrote:People who have hyperthyroidism are at greater risk of AF. Since your taking this supplement have you had a TSH or T4 test run recently! A lot of times a Hyperthyroid dosen't give many symptoms but sometimes the symptoms are severe Like AF.

No problems with the Thyroid; in my case its not the cause of AF. The thyroid blood tests, done repeatedly, come back as normal.

There is probably as much controversy and disinformation regarding Iodine as there is regarding Vitamin C. Bottom line, Iodine is not just for the thyroid, but important for many organs including the heart. Iodine also counteracts the harmful effects of fluoride and bromide in our diet. Doctors who use high dose iodine believe, that maintaining whole body sufficiency requires 12.5 mg (12500 mcg) a day, an amount similar to what the Japanese consume. See Iodine for Health by Donald W. Miller, Jr., MD

I have not tried dosages beyond about 4 mg iodine / day, as there is no doctor in this country who would supervise a high dose treatment. I felt more energy while taking higher dosages, but had inconclusive results in regards to arrhythmia. My iodine comes from the multi-vitamin (150 mcg) and from Solgar Kelp tablets (300 mcg/cap).

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Re: Lone Atrial Fibrillation and Vit C Dosage - experiences

Post Number:#8  Post by ofonorow » Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:00 am

Hate to speak for johnwen, but I don't believe he was criticizing the iodine, just hypothesizing that an over active thyroid could mimic AF. Looking for clues.

As far as vitamin C dosage for AF - I do not have personal knowledge, but perhaps Dr. Levy might and I will ask him. You imply your bowel tolerance is around 20,000 mg (or roughly 10 times the 2,000 mg dosage you mentioned.) So yes, Lypo-C in addition is probably a good idea, and couldn't hurt and will probably help.

When pondering irregular heart beats - think more magnesium and NOT MORE THAN 2 MG Manganese daily. I've told this story in my book, and I believe it is posted in Chapter 7 (http://www.practicingmedicinewithoutalicense.com/protocol/)
that the USDA found that the heart requires magnesium for a regular heart beat, but that manganese will crowd out magnesium in the competition and will lead to irregular heart beats and even death in swine. They told a caller (who then told me all this when they began denying it) that taking more than 2 mg of manganese daily will lead to a toxic level. In the case of the caller, he added up all the manganese in all the supplements he was taking and found he was taking about 20 mg daily. They told him cut back to 2 mg, and that it would require about 60 days for the body to detoxify. Sure enough, 2 months later, after cutting back to no more than 2 mg daily, his heart beat became regular. He tried to call and thank the USDA researcher in Dakota who had advised him, but they denied they had spoken to him and removed their papers from the USDA web site :?: The moral is to check the labels on ALL your supplements, and considering your normal diet, strive to keep managnese to 2 mg or less daily. Increase magnesium and after 2 months let us know what happens in your case.
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Re: Lone Atrial Fibrillation and Vit C Dosage - experiences

Post Number:#9  Post by ofonorow » Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:10 am

Thinking about your supplements.
My current daily supplementation (taken for at least 2 years): Magnesium (citrate) 200-600 mg, Taurine 2000+ mg, Lysine 2000+ mg, Vit D3 5000 mg, Vit E 400-800 IU, Zn (chelated) 30+ mg, Selenium 100+ mcg, B-complex 75mg/mcg, Iodine 150 - 1000 mcg. Drugs for AF prevention: Flecainide anti-arrhythmic, a Beta-Blocker and a Calcium Channel Blocker


Probably wise to aim for the 600 mg of magnesium daily, and perhaps vary the brand (as citrate is usually good, but who knows.) Taurine good. You may consider doubling the lysine per Pauling's recommendations. Not sure about the zinc, but coincidentally saw a commercial for a class action law suit against a denture cream manufacturer. Apparently, people are being slowly "zinc poisoned" by the dental cream. AF not among the many symptoms listed, i.e., muscle weakness, fatigue, numbness, etc. but I would consider cutting back on the zinc (and leaving it to the multiple vitamin).

The only basic Pauling recommendation that you are not following is the 25,000 iu of vitamin A daily.

And it is possible that you need CoQ10. I realize this started in your 30s, and people don't usually require CoQ10 supplementation until their forties, but it would probably be a good idea to get at least 200 mg daily.
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Re: Lone Atrial Fibrillation and Vit C Dosage - experiences

Post Number:#10  Post by ChristianW » Sun Oct 10, 2010 8:36 pm

ofonorow wrote:[color=#000080]As far as vitamin C dosage for AF - I do not have personal knowledge, but perhaps Dr. Levy might and I will ask him. You imply your bowel tolerance is around 20,000 mg (or roughly 10 times the 2,000 mg dosage you mentioned.) So yes, Lypo-C in addition is probably a good idea, and couldn't hurt and will probably help.


I would be very interested to hear what Dr. Levy has to share on the subject of AF and Vitamin C, since he is a cardiologist, who has probably treated countless people with arrhythmias.

I'm not sure, if my Vitamin C dosage became clear from my two postings: I'm currently taking 20000-25000 mg of Vitamin C/day in 5 divided doses, which is close to my bowel tolerance when I'm otherwise well. The 2000 mg/day, I mentioned, was a dosage commonly taken by people in the afibbers forum (who do not emphasize Vitamin C very much), but I have been taking more than that for about 3 years. I will add 2 pouches of Lypo-C 1000mg/day once my order arrives here.

ofonorow wrote:When pondering irregular heart beats - think more magnesium and NOT MORE THAN 2 MG Manganese daily. I've told this story in my book, and I believe it is posted in Chapter 7 (http://www.practicingmedicinewithoutalicense.com/protocol/)... He tried to call and thank the USDA researcher in Dakota who had advised him, but they denied they had spoken to him and removed their papers from the USDA web site


Your point about manganese is very interesting, and I think you're the first one who brought up a connection between Mn and arrhythmia. Have you checked, if the missing USDA web pages can still be found in "The Internet Archive"?

I analyzed my magnesium and manganese intake on Fitday and found, that my dietary intake of magnesium is 550 mg and manganese is 4.5 mg. From supplements I get 400 mg of Mg and 1 mg Mn. This is far from the 20 mg mentioned in your book. Getting it to below 2 mg seems next to impossible, as no single food is extremely high in manganese, but trace amounts are in most foods.

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Re: Lone Atrial Fibrillation and Vit C Dosage - experiences

Post Number:#11  Post by scottbushey » Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:14 am

When you mention 'lone', are you saying it comes and goes? If so, thats whats considered 'paroxysmal'. Why not go for an ablation? If you had a atypical cancer or large tumor growth, you would not try Vitamin C-you'd have surgery. I have a Hx of paroxysmal afib for about 30 years; went through all the standards of therapy, i.e. meds etc. and ended up getting an ablation 2 years ago. I started Pauling therapy a year ago. The Vit C did not do anything that I can confess to, but since my ablation, I remain in sinus rhythm. I had been to the Er about 10 times in 30 years, cardioverted twice. It gets old fast. I'd opt for the ablation and use, for sure Pauling protocol.

Here's what I take:

Inositol Hex Puritans Pride https://www.puritan.com/cardiovascular- ... -mg-015483 1000 mg mg 1 caps daily (Dr. Mercola recommendation) 2 daily
CoQ10 2 caps in the am NSI CoQ10 -- 100 mg - 120 capsules 2 daily
MVI Whole foods; 1 daily
Omega 3 Xtend-life http://www.xtend-life.com/product/Omega ... h_Oil.aspx 2 daily
Flax seed oil 2000 mg 300 caps Vitacosty $9.00 2 caps daily NSI Organic Flaxseed Oil -- 2000 mg - 300 Softgels 2 daily
Vit C caps 1000 mg Vitacost NSI Vitamin C -- 1,000 mg - 250 Capsules 15 daily in divided doses
Gugull Vitacost 1 cap bid Natrol Gugulipid 500 mg 2.5% Z+E Guggulsterones -- 100 Capsules 2-3- daily
Vitamin D3 5000 IU; 1 daily
Livon Labs Lypospheric Vit C http://www.livonlabs.com/cgi-bin/htmlos ... LGC30.html 1 packets daily
Kyolic Formula 100 Aged Garlic Extract Hi-Potency; http://www.vitacost.com/Kyolic-Formula- ... ract-Hi-Po
Chelated Magnesium; Country Life Chelated Magnesium -- 250 mg; 2 a day http://www.vitacost.com/Country-Life-Ch ... 80-Tablets
Olive Leaf Extract; http://www.soap.com/product/productdeta ... ctid=52491 Olive Leaf Extract 825 mg Tabs, 60 ct; 1 bid
Proline Powder http://www.vitacost.com/Source-Naturals ... 1078015512 1 gram bid
Lysine Powder http://www.herbalcom.com/store.php3?lis ... 3c1df28bf4 3000mg 1/2 teaspoon bid

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Re: Lone Atrial Fibrillation and Vit C Dosage - experiences

Post Number:#12  Post by ofonorow » Wed Oct 13, 2010 6:57 am

[quote]
The fellow from the USDA did not mention food, just "no more than 2 mg" of Mn on supplement labels. Last I heard, they had posted new papers, e.g. http://iospress.metapress.com/content/tqr8rm7u85hd9y0m/ is probably from the same group.
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Re: Lone Atrial Fibrillation and Vit C Dosage - experiences

Post Number:#13  Post by ChristianW » Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:12 am

scottbushey wrote:When you mention 'lone', are you saying it comes and goes? If so, thats whats considered 'paroxysmal'.

Scott, both 'lone' and 'paroxysmal' AF, meaning it comes and goes, episodes range between a few minutes to 2 days (one lasted 30 days). Lone means, that there is no other cardiovascular disease, the heart is structurally normal. Your supplement protocol looks interesting, thanks for posting the details and the links. How much Vitamin C did you take before your ablation?
scottbushey wrote:Why not go for an ablation? If you had a atypical cancer or large tumor growth, you would not try Vitamin C-you'd have surgery. I have a Hx of paroxysmal afib for about 30 years; went through all the standards of therapy, i.e. meds etc. and ended up getting an ablation 2 years ago. I started Pauling therapy a year ago. The Vit C did not do anything that I can confess to, but since my ablation, I remain in sinus rhythm. I had been to the Er about 10 times in 30 years, cardioverted twice. It gets old fast. I'd opt for the ablation and use, for sure Pauling protocol.

Depending on the cancer, I think Vitamin C and other alternative therapies would be my first choice. Any surgery carries a certain amount of risk with it, even RF ablation. Ablation definitely is not my first choice. Having said that, I am scheduled to have preparatory consultations to have an ablation sometime next year. Having had three electro-cardioversions myself I can understand how you felt and its great, that you are in NSR for two years already. The success rate for ablations is between 50% and 90% depending on where it is done and who performs the procedure. Not all ablations are as successful as yours and many afibbers have had two before they could get off the meds.

I'm still wondering about this: if Vitamin C can cure Swine Flu, Dengue, Leukemia, Coronary Heart Disease, Snake Bites, Asthma and many inflammatory diseases, why does it sound so unreasonable to you, that high doses of Vitamin C could cure Atrial Fibrillation? The studies (quoted above) indicate a definitive link between AF and inflammation. One of the studies* showed, that 8 times as many patients had AF recurrence, when they did not take Vitamin C. - Has anyone ever tried a Vitamin C treatment protocol for AF incorporating oral bowel tolerance doses, regular IV treatments and additional daily Lyposomic Vitamin C?


* I found a reference to the dosage of Vitamin C used in one of the AF studies:
In a relatively small study, 100 patients who had received preoperative β-blocker therapy were randomized to receive vitamin C or placebo. Vitamin C was given in a dose of 2,000 mg the night before the procedure and 1,000 mg twice daily for 5 more days. Patients were monitored continuously for 4 days after surgery. During that period of observation, the authors report an amazing 85% reduction in postoperative atrial fibrillation.
This claim is nothing less than dramatic. The most safe and effective atrial fibrillation prophylaxis to date, β-blockers reduce the incidence of atrial fibrillation from about 40% to 30%.

Only 2000 mg Vit C/day for only 6 days causing such a dramatic improvement

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Re: Lone Atrial Fibrillation and Vit C Dosage - experiences

Post Number:#14  Post by scottbushey » Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:06 pm

To answer your question, I always followed the Pauling theory. Then I moved on to bowel tolerance (up to 20 grams per day). Then I incorporated the dynamic flow principle into my intake to bowel tolerance. I take capsuled ascorbate through the day and 1 pack of lypo in the am first thing in the am.

'after surgery'! The dosage of VC given is almost negligible. Was it given IV or by mouth? You will be hard pressed to find one single study proving that VC cured AF.

Let me start by saying that I am an advocate of Pauling therapy; however you state:

"if Vitamin C can cure Swine Flu, Dengue, Leukemia, Coronary Heart Disease, Snake Bites, Asthma and many inflammatory diseases, why does it sound so unreasonable to you, that high doses of Vitamin C could cure Atrial Fibrillation?"

The above is theory-it is not proven that VC can cure any of the disorders you name. There could be a relationship, i.e. adjunct therapy with meds, surgery etc. I agree these patients will do much better with high dose VC than those that don't, but to say that the outcome was based solely on the use of HDVC cannot be proven.

For instance-I could say that my protocol has cured my AF, not the ablation-I may believe this, but there is more medical evidence to support the surgery.

You seem to base your afib on inflammation. Has your doc drawn labs to rule out a high inflammation ratio in your blood? The CRP test will confirm your level of inflammation. Get him to order a VAP test to see what you level of Lp(a). Could inflammation cause afib? It's possible. Afib is generally a structural defect in the firing mechanism of the heart. VC will not fix that. We are not reptiles that can grow back tails.

I didn't go for the ablation until I just could not function any longer popping in and out of afib. Maybe it will come back-who knows? Only God! The meds are poison. As a Nurse I can say, one has to pick the lesser of two evils. Let me warn you of one thing, if you transition into full blown afib and it becomes chronic, the ablation is out. So, having said this, better not wait too long, you may develop chronic afib and then you're where you are.......stuck.

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Re: Lone Atrial Fibrillation and Vit C Dosage - experiences

Post Number:#15  Post by ofonorow » Fri Oct 15, 2010 5:33 am

From Dr. Levy,
Hello Owen,

When dealing with atrial fibrillation, how to treat it, and what responses can be expected, it is useful to know how acute, chronic, and/or recurrent the problem is. Furthermore, long term prognosis and response to interventions like vitamin C will be strongly affected by how large the left atrium is on M-mode ECHOcardiography. 2D ECHO is helpful as well if the M-mode is a suboptimal cut. When the left atrial dimension is greater than or equal to 4.0 cm, a solid reversion to normal sinus rhythm without properly dosed antiarrhythmic drugs is unlikely to occur. And when the left atrium is even significantly larger, the atrial fibrillation will simply become locked-in and chronic, regardless of what the patient does.

As a practical point, vitamin C would really only be useful in the very early stages of this process, along with the elimination of stimulants such as caffeine from the diet. If there is evidence of cardiomyopathy elsewhere in the heart, a program that will effectively eliminate the toxin loads, such as mercury, that appear to often be the underlying cause/major aggravating factor for the arrhythmia, as the myocardial levels of such toxins can be very high. Of course, such increased toxin loads in the myocardium would be expected to promote a chronic inflammatory process at the cellular level.

Hope this helps to clarify things.

Best regards,

Dr. Levy
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